UCL vs Imperial HELP!!

[butterflyflutterby123]

sorry for long post, dont want to drip feed. DS18 was rejected last year from imperial mech eng and was accepted by UCL. he has 4A stars at alevel and an a star in an EPQ

imperial was always his dream uni and he automatically thought he would reapply in his gap year. Now he is undecided between the two and very torn. he's done a lot of research, spoken to students and here are the points about both

Imperial:
further commute
harder course
very hard work/life balance
less coursework, inc group coursework
better reputation
professors are more invested in your academic success and very available to help
can specialise in nuclear engineering
he prefers the environement and vibe
higher starting salaries

UCL:
nearer
easier
conceptually easier
professors less invested and not always available, even when they should be
more coursework, esp group coursework

he is not keen on courseowrk, especially group as he is worried about relinquishing responsibility for his grade to other students and relying on their motivation and ability

he is also aware that a first in ucl is better than a 2:1 in imperial and is worried about what he could acheive.

any thoughts and or experience welcome please!!

Hi, OP -

Those are extraordinary results; congratulations to your DS.

I will try to consider the points you and he raise, then discuss the elephant in the room.

Only your DS can weigh the inconvenience of the commute. If the transport strikes continue and worsen, what implications will that have? The difficulty of the course at I and the resulting skewed work-life balance is the flip side of its superior reputation. Again, only he can weigh it. If he tends to react badly to pressure - and his grades do not suggest this - that would in my mind be a point in favour of UCL.

Having taught in STEM at some excellent American universities, I think the preference of able British students for less coursework is a big mistake. It lets you slide. No matter how able you are, you will learn more if you put in a consistent effort across the term than if you cram your learning into a few intense weeks because nothing more is required of you. Coursework helps everyone, even the brightest, keep up and reinforces their learning. We do not assign it for our own pleasure.

I sympathise with able students who have carried a group in Sixth Form and worry about doing so at uni. TTTT it can happen, but there should be mechanisms to prevent it. Also, group work is going to be essential for the career of your DS and similar dynamics will exist. IMO it is better that he should learn to cope with them now rather than later.

I agree that a First from UCL is a bit more meaningful than a 2.1 from I. If DS is doing a MEng degree and considering the possibility of a PhD, a First is important. Otherwise, probably less so.

Is he interested in a Nuclear specialisation because he is interested in a career in the nuclear industry? That is the only reason I see, and it really isn’t necessary. A good Mech Eng degree will open the doors to the nuclear industry.

I agree that the openness of academics to UG interactions, the environment, the vibe and what just feels right are all very important.

The elephant in the room: if I understand correctly, your DS holds an offer from UCL. To reapply to I (and four more choices) he will need to let that go. Even with these stellar results, there is no guarantee that he will receive an offer from I. This is by no means unheard of. If he doesn’t, then what?

At a minimum, I would strongly encourage you to contact the lead admissions tutor for I Mech Eng, if the balance tips that way. Lay the situation out for them clearly but concisely and do not proceed unless they are very encouraging! My personal view is that the balance possibly does tip that way, but if your DS were mine I would be encouraging him to start now at UCL. If he didn’t like it, I would encourage him to excel with a view towards transferring or even restarting at I - anything to avoid being caught without a place. He could also do a BEng at UCL followed by an MSc at I.

I will be well aware that AL grades were moderated last year. The competition is expected to be harder this year. This is a tough one and your DS sounds like the type of student and future worker the UK needs. I wish him the best of luck

My dc is at Imperial and the first year University accommodation is pretty good in terms of getting to Campus, so I wouldn't worry about that.

I guess all other factors are very subjective issues that your ds needs to consider for himself.

he is also aware that a first in ucl is better than a 2:1 in imperial

Only if he wants to go on to further studies, otherwise a 2:1 from Imperial should be highly regarded in terms of getting interviews. There seem to be lots of companies specifically recruiting from Imperial for techy jobs.

Employers won’t reject him because he doesn’t have a first. Most employers really would look at a candidate with either of these degrees. I also think that Imperial, in the circumstances, is not better. When grads go for jobs, they are able to apply for the same higher paying ones. Therefore a top grad from Bristol, Sheffield, UCL or lots of others, is not disadvantaged at all. Imperial doesn’t mean better in all circumstances. Grads don’t come from one university at bigger employers. Ucl
grads get a chance too and will not earn less.

Out of interest though: Who does nuclear engineering in the uk? EDF are the most well known and they are French.

Regarding course work: I think it’s vital. You cannot be an island. Most engineering solutions in the real world are collaborative. So of course working with others is vital. Also students at UCL are hardly useless. He might even learn something from them.

Out of interest though: Who does nuclear engineering in the uk? EDF are the most well known and they are French.

Rolls Royce comes to mind.

PS OP, I am also a former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor. Your DS really does have extraordinary results and I don’t want to sound overly pessimistic. But I have dealt with many outstanding Oxbridge rejects and others who simply had bad breaks. It really can happen to anyone: admissions tutors know better than anyone how much randomness is baked into the system. This is why I always urge caution.

Having said that, I always advocate that applicants try for the place where they will thrive best. (Subject in this case to the caveats above). Unless the commute will drive your DS batty (and living in is out of the question), his comments about I feeling right are really significant to me. However I do worry about his attitude towards coursework. He won’t necessarily thrive at I if he isolates from his peers and/or doesn’t work consistently on his courses. OTOH if feeling good there helps him integrate, all the better.

Leaving travel logistics as well as the uncertainties of admissions aside, were his excellent A level grades achieved by working at full or near full stretch? If so then on balance I would err towards UCL in order to allow more time for those extras of university life that are hugely important socially and for career applications.
I understand his concerns for group course work. However the quality and work ethic of partners between projects tends to even out overall for academic marks. In fact for his personal development he probably has much to gain from having more group work since he appears not be a natural collaborator. Also wherever he goes he will have contend with different lab partners and how that will influence his grades.

I am not sure if IC senior academics are very invested in supporting undergraduates but at either IC or UCL the staff will respond to proactive students who are keen to learn from them.

I agree with @sendsummer ’s last point. I was not under the impression that UCL Mech Eng academics were disinterested in keen students, nor that those at I were particularly proactive at outreach. The vast majority of us are very happy to spend a reasonable amount of time interacting with and helping undergraduates. Once in a blue moon a student becomes over-reliant; many more use us in lieu of reading the carefully prepared syllabus, which can get annoying; but with those exceptions UGs are mostly a pleasure.

Can I add Imperial do offer generous bursaries if this matters to him.

My DS is 4th year Imperial and pretty much all his peers have already secured jobs for next autumn. Obviously I can't compare what the situation would be at UCL, but Imperial graduates are very employable.

It's not the same course, but my DS has had a lot of group coursework too. I actually think this is a positive thing as it gets them ready for the workplace.

@PettsWoodParadise
The Guardian says RR haven’t built any nuclear reactors yet. However I guess grads could get jobs in their research dept.

@Poetryandwine 😏I will qualify my comment of The staff will respond to proactive students who are keen to learn from them with but may be less enthusiastic if used in lieu of reading the carefully prepared syllabus,

I think RR have built every reactor for the Royal Navy.

i suggest he accepts UCL and put in an early application to Imperial via UCAC at the start of September before he actually starts at UCL ( that would remove some complications about filling in the UCAs application and academic reference). That would keep options open. He may well find that he is enjoying UCL and decides to remain there.

The Imperial web site talks about Nuclear power being in demand as the world seeks to reduce Co2 emissions and that grads work all over the world in this field. RR is somewhat niche regarding submarines when compared to world energy.

higher starting salaries

Hopefully he understands the difference between correlation and causation and realises that employers will not give a higher starting salary to an Imperial grad than a UCL grad doing the same job?! If the difference in salaries is statistically significant then the reason for it is presumably unknown - it may be that some UCL grads have a broader outlook and are less intensely competitive, or it may be that many of them come from countries where starting salaries are lower, or a combination of things.

It is also unlikely that a higher paying employer will choose an Imperial grad over a UCL grad just because they went to Imperial. So if he is as bright and employable as you imply, he should dismiss salaries as one of his criteria, unless his fear of being placed in a study group with someone at statistical risk of lower future earnings is very intense. If so, that would reflect badly on him, and I hope he broadens his perspective before he becomes a recruiter himself. (Perhaps some former Imperial grads do exclusively recruit other Imperial grads, and therein lies the problem!)

There's no guarantee of getting a first at UCL. The decision may well be between 2:1 and I and and 2:1 at UCL. I would go for imperial

Regarding salaries: employers offer the same to their grad engineers if they are studying towards Chartered status. If Incorporated status via BEng, they might pay at a lower rate. Rates of pay should be discounted as many top engineering grads can be successful and there’s no rate for Imperial grads. The rates of pay secured by grads is somewhat down to the grad too. It depends on their interests, where they work and in what country.

How can anyone know what classification of degree the Dc will get? He’s yet to study engineering! Also employers are not that bothered by a first. Many look for far more evidence of the right fit than pure academics. Hence a 2:1 doesn’t stop anyone!

Re : Coursework

My DS - 4th year Chem Eng at Imperial

All departments may do it differently but he has had many group coursework work to submit over the years.

He's top 10% in his course (Dean's list) for reference (with the same public exam results as your DS).

Each group he's been in has been selected on a variety of bases - it can be a random selection (all 1st year groups and some other years) or chosen as an 'average group' by a selected cross section of the course (so one from each performance rating) or chosen by individuals themselves (for example 2 person 4th year project).

All have worked out, though last year one course work he did feel that his mark was lower overall due to less effective people in the group. (In his course there is not the opportunity to give anonymous peer feedback for other group members, although this can happen in other departments).

He says the most academic students tend to be appointed by the group as its leader and overall 'checker' of the final work submitted.

Could you clarify - does he have a deferred offer for UCL?

Presume he is looking to live at home rather than on campus at Imperial?
Has he applied for Imperial to start in 2023?

The question is perhaps when does he want to start university? You make the best of a situation in life. So many things - pandemic , which tutor, other students affect your experience of university. The biggest factor is the individual abs their attitude.

It strikes me that the group work in UCL might be a good opportunity for someone who is not a natural collaborator.

What does he want out of university - is he looking to immerse himself in the social scene? Imperial is very different to other universities ( doi I was there!) definitely more geeky, fewer women etc.

The key thing is for him to consider what he wants from University. Does the idea of being with a lot of bright, and often highly motivated scientists excite him, or would he prefer the chance to hang out with people studying a range of subjects. Perhaps seeing a Rada student play with friends, or an exhibition at the Slade? Perhaps even take an external option in a completely different department.

He will do best where he is happiest. Employers will be looking for a range of things and personality, resilience, engagement and commitment will be as important as degree classification and, between UCL and Imperial, or where he studied. The only marginal difference is if he is hoping for an international or academic career, where the Imperial name might carry more weight, but this will be small.

DD took an intercalation degree in the engineering department at Imperial and thoroughly enjoyed it. There was a lot of group work, in different formats, which, as a medic she was used to. We heard a lot about it as it was lockdown year and she was at home. Her collaborations were with people she had never met, some Masters some third year UG, from different backgrounds, often in different time zones, and completely on-line. It was not just the working with others, there were all sorts of problems to solve like parts not arriving from China, first because the Imperial accounts department failed to pay the invoice, and then because of Chinese New Year. But they got there, and indeed got some good results in an area where some real and important breakthroughs are being made taught by someone who was a world expert. Really exciting if that is where your interests lie, and a great training for anyone wanting to work in international or multi disciplinary teams.

Interest is key. Someone we knew got very absorbed in the Robotics Society which led to some super opportunities. You get out what you put in. Someone who is able but not that passionate in their subject might be better off/happier elsewhere. Anyone getting a place will be clever enough. To a large extent firsts and 2.1s will sorted out by the level of engagement.,

A lot of Universities seem to be moving away from traditional exam formats. Cheating is an issue, with things like AI text bots and the iPad "look up" facility. (Yeah, exams become a lot easier if you can press on the technical word you don't know and get a quick definition!) Equally employers presumably want to see applicants who can work with others, and have delivered projects as well as learnt their stuff. The different ways of assessing were welcomed by my daughter who is dyslexic and so performs relatively poorly on written tests. There was enough variety that everyone had a chance to perform to their strengths. On one big project individual marks were influenced by peer scores. The maths competency paper was simply pass or fail with an 80% pass mark, but three opportunities to sit, whilst a couple of others required presentations, one in a group and one individual. There was no scope for last minute swotting. To do well you had to work consistently through the year.

In terms of careers employers seem to be interested in Imperial graduates, and Imperial is regularly passing on details to DD of those looking to recruit in her field. Starting salaries are high!

My DS is an Imperial graduate (MEng JMC), now studying for a MSc in neuroscience at UCL.

Are finances an issue? Imperial has a bursary scheme which for us was a big deal. UCL was his insurance for undergraduate but I would have had to top up his loan by thousands if he hadn’t made his imperial offer.

My DS has an anxiety disorder which caused some issues at Imperial, particularly around assessments and exams but UCL seem to be much more proactive in helping him manage this. Obviously different departments but may be something to bear in mind if this is issue for your DS

I wouldn't necessarily say a degree from UCL is easier than a degree from Imperial. The same content is covered and your son would meet the same calibre of students at UCL as from Imperial.

Your DC is in an enviable position to have a choice of two top universities. I would ask him where he feels more comfortable... Good luck to him

I wouldn't necessarily say a degree from UCL is easier than a degree from Imperial. The same content is covered and your son would meet the same calibre of students at UCL as from Imperial.

I think the 'calibre' of students is quite different in my experience. Imperial has much tougher entrance requirements and recruits the 'best' from a worldwide applicant pool

You're right about the entry requirements for Imperial but that's not to say you won't get high calibre students from UCL - it has a very high international student population and also cherry picks the best.