University with better A levels

[Thisthatandtheotherones]

My DD has just finished her first term of 6th form. Her report is outstanding and her teachers think she could achieve 4A* at level next year ( it is early yet of course).

She is achieving the top marks in her college in 3 of her 4 subjects and is not far behind in her 4th.

She is working incredibly hard and loves the college. Her previous school (private boarding) was a misery and we regret sending her but felt trapped until the GCSES were over.

Her results were far from her potential and I am aware this will affect her university choices but she is top of the world and is now talking about applying to top universities in the UK and USA.

Her self esteem is very high at the moment and she is very proud of her achievements this term. We have our happy girl back .Can anyone with experience or insight offer advice?
Her subjects are Maths / further maths /economics and English literature.

Writing as a former Russell Group Admissions Tutor, I think this is likely to have much less of an impact than you fear.

To some extent it is a question of degree. I assume your DD’s English and Maths grades are higher based on her AL choices. These are the ones all units of admission have a minimum standard for, but I think it is usually a 5 or 6.

Depending on her top choices for uni, your DD should discuss with an advisor whether it is a good idea to mention on her Personal Statement why she underperformed then and why she is confident she will maintain her higher standards for herself at uni. I would go with an expert opinion on that. With my own admission tutor hat on, PGs of three A stars would carry the day. That is probably true of most admissions tutors in most disciplines at the large majority of Russell Group Universities.

That doesn’t mean that admission to a super competitive programme in eg Economics is a given. Last year this Board had many sad stories from parents of DC predicted four A stars who did not get offers from the top Economics programmes. There are always similar stories about Oxbridge.

Economics is her preferred degree. She has a mixture of 8 and 7 ( more 8's ) but also two 6's.
I know that many applying will have all 9's.

She does have a real interest in economics and has attended lectures at LSE for a number of years. She would love to go there but wants to apply to Cambridge and UCL as well.

Just to add @poetryandwine she has lots of evidence of her interest in economics which would help her in an interview. She wants to apply to the US and sit the SATS but would need financial aid so it could be a long shot. Thank you for your advice it so good have an experts input.

@Thisthatandtheotherones
No. They won’t all have all grades at 9. Some will but there’s wriggle room even at elite universities. Some universities don’t weight GCSEs. Others do. So check who does and who doesn’t. Are there other tests? These have a weighting too. Then there is the PS. Is it a tie breaker or part of the weighting? How important is it? What do successful students have in terms of gcse grades? How many have FM? Some universities it will be a lot but some won’t have as many. Check the stats.

I wouldn’t write anywhere off. Look to see where might be a better bet based on their data f you are concerned. There’s 5 options after all plus usa.

Thank you @TizerorFizz your advice is very helpful.

@TizerorFizz is right that emphasis on GCSE results will vary and you are right, OP, that your daughter’s genuine interest in Economics will help. (To what extent depends on how intensely she has pursued this; and the field is outside my sphere of competence.)

On some Board or other there is a recent thread largely about the surprising amount of financial aid available for international students in the US. I will try to find it for you. I hope you will like the results!

However the caveat for your DD is that American colleges and unis make admissions decisions before A levels. Absent continuous assessment here in the UK, I am afraid that your DD’s GCSE grades (like any English pupil’s) will weigh heavily in the decision. OTOH if she were to take a gap year and apply with superb A levels and a brief explanation of the contrast (I taught in excellent American unis for about 15 yrs and am confident that Americans love personal development arcs) those GCSE grades would cease to matter

Thank you @poetryandwine, she would love to study in the US and your advice is very helpful. She will be delighted that you have taken the time to respond. I think a gap year could be the answer.

Okay, the thread is called something like Pushing North American Education. Dated 24/01/2022 but currently on p1 of the Secondary Education Board.

Mostly about how some elite independent schools are doing just that. But towards the end several of us wanted to disabuse posters of the idea that elite American unis are only for the rich.

Harvard and Dartmouth to my knowledge (and others say similar things about the other Ivies, Stanford, Chicago, etc) now have a policy that with an income below USD 100000, a family never writes a check and 100% of all fees are covered by the university. Some unis do focus aid primarily on Americans, but many of the best do not.

FWIW I created a fictional Harvard applicant profile as a European with a family income of 175000, modest non-retirement assets excluding the family home and two siblings not at university. I put down only 2500 in personal savings. Harvard calculated my total annual expenses to be 81000 and my family’s share of that to be 29000.

On that thread a few of us also discuss the system of elite four year American colleges. (There is no British equivalent but the best are utterly wonderful with genuine advantages over universities.). A mum with a child at Oxbridge, a child at an Ivy and a child at such a college said the one at the college is having by far the best experience. Again, some offer good financial aid to international students. IIRC Amherst has a reputation for this.

Thank you so much @poetryandwine , I found it.

My daughter got pretty poor GCSE results (for her) as having won a 6th form scholarship to a private school she then literally did no work. She did a bit more work in the 6th form and had offers from St Andrews, Durham, Exeter and I can’t remember where else. In her A level term she did actually work hard and came out with excellent grades, so decided to have a year out and apply to Oxford. She got a place so her poor GCSEs really had no effect.

That is so good to hear @Molecule . Congratulations to your daughter !

Just remember that if she doesn't get offers from her predicted grades (partly due to GCSEs, partly due to it being very competitive) then she can always apply afterwards with grades and take a gap year - this will mean they know the grades are correct (some schools, especially private do have form for over predicting, not saying your DD's college fits this category but a large mismatch between predicted grades and GCSEs with no mitigating circumstances could ring alarm bells).

It's not a race to get to university remember, if economics is what she wants to do then it's worth the extra ye

@Molecule

My dd was similar private scholarship for 6th form, but she still had a contextual offer due to her state school (11-16) being in special measures and our postcode (not on income) however exceeded the offer to match the standard offer anyway.

I agree @gogohmm , DD was very happy to hear the advice on this thread this evening. Thank you all .x

My son went to uni in September. I know of 3 of his intake who had excellent results, one had taken 2 alevels early so had 5 A*, who didn't get a place doing economics at RG universities. One changed course, one took a year out to work and has now decided to do something different, and the overachiever hadn't decided what to do with his next year on results day.
Economics seems particularly tough so I'd encourage her to at least have a backup plan

She has her heart set on economics @POTC and definitely wouldn't want to change that.
If she went to the US it would still be economics but maybe with public policy because she is very interested in American politics but she couldn't be persuaded to study a degree without economics. Which university did your son decide on for economics?

@Thisthatandtheotherones
Dont forget US universities might require a broader field of study than economics. I would look at the structure of the degrees. Studying abroad is always possible after a degree here.

Economics courses vary a lot so it partly depends on the type of economics she wants to study. What A levels is she taking? Not having FM is a disadvantage for the more mathematical courses (Warwick, UCL, LSE and Cambridge) unless you are at the sort of school that does not teach FM well. But not everyone wants a very maths oriented course.

If she is attracted by the broader US curriculum and interested in public policy she might also look at courses like PPE at LSE.

LSE give the number of applicants per place. Competition there and at comparable courses is ferocious. However if you want a career that involves serious quantitative skills, then these are courses you should be aiming for. PS counts for a lot, build that, make sure you get A*s at A level and take a gap year if necessary.

DS is now in the US studying for a PhD after a BSc and Masters in the UK. For him this has been the right way round as he arrived in the US with very strong technical skills. His US peers in contrast had had a much broader education.

@NeedmoresleepHee a levels are Maths , further maths, English literature and Economics. She is also doing an EPQ.

DS, who we assumed was a strong applicant as he was taking five A levels and predicted 4A*s, albeit from a school where strong A level performance was the norm, was advised to apply for all four of Warwick, LSE, Cambridge and UCL and be happy if he got one. It would be difficult to predict which one.

In the end and on the very last day, he got LSE having been rejected by the others. One of his classmates was rejected by all four but was accepted by Cambridge (not LSE) on reapplication.

This was almost a decade ago. If anything things have got tougher since, possibly because Oxbridge’s widening access has led to more students with strong grades being rejected, perhaps because of increased demand from overseas, or perhaps a greater willingness to forego the typical “university experience” and consider courses in London. (I have even noticed a change in attitude on this board. I first started posting to encourage people to consider some very good Universities in London as viable alternatives to Oxbridge. Even posters who at that time were damning about, say Imperial, have come round to some extent.)

If you do take this approach be prepared for a rough spring term. And only worth doing if you want a technical, maths-heavy course. There are plenty of other good courses in the UK.

Just seen your post. It is a good combination.

Thank you @Needmoresleepyour advice is very helpful..I hope your DS is enjoying his studies in the US.

He is. He was always passionate about economics, ever since the age of twelve when he picked up a book his father was reading. He continued read reading popular economics books. At one point I found a suggested reading list prepared by an Oxford college for incoming PPE and E&M students to discover he had already read most of them. We went to the bookshop on the LSE campus and they were very good with further recommendations.

For DS University was always about economics, so the right course was crucial. In some ways LSE was not ideal as we live within walking distance, but he made a firm group of friends from all over the world who shared this common passion. (Many of whom are now studying for PhDs in the US.)

Many/most other students are looking for more balance and might find a broader less maths focussed course more interesting. Or prefer somewhere further from home with more sport or social opportunities.

A lot is about what your daughter wants. She should read course content thoroughly. If one of the competitive maths heavy courses suit then she needs to read the PS guidance carefully and both aim to convey that interest and ensure she has addressed and evidenced everything they are looking for. However she should also think about whether a broader or PPE type course would interest her more.