Natural sciences -Cambridge.

[notreadyforseptember]

Hello
looking for any advice or feedback. My DS is in year 12 doing a levels in biology chemistry and maths.

doesn’t really know want he wants to do. But someone suggested natural science at Cambridge which he then thought looked cool!

I don’t think the school will be able to advise. We’re not in a deprived area that might have access to outreach. But neither is the school set up to give good advice on Oxbridge applications. They just don’t tend to send kids there.

I just wondered what sort of extra curricular stuff might be worth doing in year 12 to support an application. Or any other feedback?

or is it totally out of his reach. I would say that 3 A grades are totally realistic. Probably an a star or two wouldn’t be impossible.

thanks for any advice

Get him to have a look at MOOC free courses. He also needs to look closely at the course. DS joined a Zoom presentation (which you can probably find online) by a professor about the course and it put him off as there was a heavy emphasis on maths in year 1. Wasn't about his ability (he got an A*).

I don't know if it's totally out of reach, and the only certainty is you won't get a place if you don't apply. But realistically the standard offer for that course is two A stars and an A - not lower, sometimes higher - and many candidates will be doing 4 A levels including further maths.

However, of course they get five applications. So if your DS likes the idea of Natural Sciences rather than one specific science, obviously he should look at what's on offer elsewhere, and what their grade requirements are too.

Most candidates will be predicted ( and achieve) 4 A stars at A level or better.They don't care at all about extra curriculars.Read around the subject and practise the NSAA test

You can also do Nat Sci at other places. Although be aware you get people assuming you have done a biology degree.....

Agree with other posters. Lots of other universities offer a natural sciences degree, and it's fine to put Cambridge as one of his choices and see what happens.

Thanks for all your thoughts. He doesn’t particularly like maths although is good at it and really didn’t want to do further maths. I think then this would put him at a disadvantage if most people are going to have 4 A stars. He is doing an EPQ next term and I think some places do take that into account.

I think he is a hard worker rather than what I imagine to be the typical Cambridge student who is more ‘gifted’ and understands things more intuitively. sorry I appreciate that’s rather clumsily put. I think he’s good at learning things and applying them but not really good on original thought.

I know as well that he’s not so good on the practicals in science. I don’t want to dampen his enthusiasm but I just want him to be realistic and to support him as much as I can.

Its really interesting course .... and hard to get into ...but hes interested so go with it.. any preparation for that will help with other things.... have a look at events....my niece is doing it at Durham ...there aren't lots of universities that do it really and the modules are slightly different..she didn't like the look of Exeter course i think as much more biology
So Cambridge, durham,bath were her top picks...
She's really into Chemistry and has liked the modules...
She did STEM mentoring at school entered some competitions..
Day courses, some online thing with Imperial... she read around her subjects...was reading material Chemistry book on the beach in the summer!

Her school were focused on oxbridge and gutted about how few got in her year.....so it does help...maybe talk to his head of year/subject/head...my neighbour had to really push her sons school for support but it worked and he's at Oxford... however my observation is you have to be a self driven/disciplined personality type as well as bright...

I would contact the admissions and talk to them ....they are trying to widen access so they maybe able to point in right direction...

My perception is that Cambridge STEM students need a combination of brightness, enthusiasm for their subject and hard work.

The aptitude test and interviews are likely to need year 12 a level knowledge but be able to apply it to a novel problem - maybe combining different concepts and some 'out of the box' thinking if you see what I mean. There's certainly no harm in giving the aptitude test a go - the past papers are available, he could try some of them in the summer hols and see if they're fun or a nightmare. If he gets on ok, he can do the test - it's before they have to make their UCAS choices iirc. Worst case is he's done some consolidation of his year 12 work, there's no downside to that. Take it all one stage at a time, no big stress. The likeliest outcome for any applicant is that they don't get a place as there's a few times more applicants than places, it's not the be-all-and-end-all, we're lucky to have lots of other good unis/science courses in this country.

An EPQ can help in the sense of having some evidence of engagement with the subject for the CV and maybe for discussion at interview. It won't give any grade reductions at Cambridge but an A or A star might give one grade reduction on some other courses. IMO an EPQ is worth doing as an end in itself to explore something the student is interested in more than a means to an end.

Can’t advise on admissions however if he does go for it and things go well I’d recommend Fitzwilliam college at Cambridge . My dh did NatSci there and found the other folks very down to earth, state school types. Fitz doesn’t attract the posh/privileged ones.

As a basic level of 'outreach', all schools have access to a 'link' college for their area.

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/area-links

Lancaster offers a flexible Natural Sciences degree (BSc with or without a placement or study abroad year / MSci with or without year abroad ).
www.lancaster.ac.uk/natural-sciences/#d.en.410269

Good God. I must be very old now. The course was good in my day, not perceived as the best. Most had to get ABB to get in. In the olden days it was a tough course with a lot of work.

I have 2 DDs who studied/are studying NatSci, one at Cambridge although she did PhysNatSci. She did things like Outreach activities with her school - went to a primary school with her Physics teacher, volunteered on the school's stand at the local science festival etc. I bought her a book which was on the recommended reading list for somewhere - could have been Why Chemical Reactions Happen by James Keeler - which she read and was able to include in her Personal Statement. She also did an EPQ which was mentioned briefly in her interview. She also went to a Women into STEM course at Corpus Christi College at the end of y12. I strongly recommend looking at Cambridge's widening participation courses and your DS contacting the college connected with your area.

Between them, the DDs applied to C, Durham, York, Bath, Imperial, Leicester and Warwick and possibly somewhere else. The one who studied at C ended up being taught by the author mentioned above and now works for him! You are welcome to PM me if you feel it might help.

No dog in this fight as I'm not a scientist and didn't go to Oxbridge! But I have always been led to believe that Natural Sciences at Cambridge was one of the hardest undergraduate degree subjects of all at any university in the UK.

Or is it only the Natural Scientists who have told me that… 😀

I am a natsci who went to Cambridge and I found it very hard work.

I would really recommend reading reading and more reading beyond and specific extra curriculars. Start reading around the curriculum and if he enjoys it and wants to do more then that's a good sign. If he doesn't enjoy reading round the curriculum it might not be a good sign ...

At that age I enjoyed a brief history of time, Atkins' molecules, the blind watchmaker, the ancestors tale and climbing mount improbable.

In fact Cambridge provide a potential reading list:

www.natsci.tripos.cam.ac.uk/prospective-students/reading

And a chunk of them are on there.

While you obviously have to be very bright, in general being a grafter rather than a pure genius is a good thing at Oxbridge, I think. I know a few young people who went there and the one who definitely fell into that category really thrived there. She'd had to work really hard to get there and was fully prepared to continue to work really hard. So I wouldn't let that in itself put him off.

There's lots of good advice above, the only thing I'd add is make sure he doesn't get so caught up in the idea of going to Cambridge that he forgets to make sure it's both the course and the location that he really wants.

There is the option at Cambridge to do Mathematical Biology as one of your four first year courses, rather than straight Maths. That could be a deal breaker.

Plus if you're not at the kind of school that usually sends students to Cambridge, that could pique an Admissions Tutor's interest. There are always boxes to be ticked!

Thanks everyone for all your good advice and thoughts.

It seems that we’ve already missed the boat for some year 12 activities that have already been booked up, while there are others that we don’t meet the criteria for. We are in a non deprived area based on polar and acorn. A couple of students make it to oxbridge each year, but the school does nothing specific to support them in the process. Eg they wouldn’t promote any taster days at Oxford.

I think at the beginning of year 12 parents meeting another parent did ask - and the response was along the lines that different unis are good for different subjects, don’t get hung up on Oxbridge, we have 200 students to support so don’t do anything special for Oxbridge.

I think the idea of going through some books on the reading list is an excellent one. As you say it might put them off, or spur them on!

I know as well that he’s not so good on the practicals in science.

Hmm, speaking as someone who regularly poured the wrong half of the reaction down the sink, I'd say that wouldn't be a complete bar to entry.

Of that reading list, I can recommend Phil Ball, Lewis Wolpert and Ian Stewart. I don't know those particular books but they are good writers.

Then he can delve deeper into anything that takes his fancy (after all, the other candidates will also know about the recommended books, but it's where it takes you from there).

This is the actual ucas point score accepted candidates between 2018 an 2020 achieved. Of course they dont admit on ucas points but it gives you an idea of the calibre of applicants.Each A* is 56 points

Ouch! That’s very illuminating @fUNNYfACE36 and not in a good way.
So if he gets 3 A star that’s 168 points (which is unlikely)

he has got grade 8 Lamda distinction which I think is 30 points. I guess music grade 4 doesn’t count??

EPQ. Say he got an A star so that’s another 28 points which makes 228 points which is the absolute maximum he could get.

I think 2 A and an A star is more likely so 210 points. So that graph suggests that about 75% of people had a higher ucas score. I guess some could have got points through music and other stuff but realistically it shows that many do 4 a levels and gets A star in all of them.!

A good chunk of them will have a general studies a level though - I did, and obviously Cambridge (and indeed everywhere else) don't count it towards my offer but it would bump up my points score.

I'm pretty sure the offer now is A A A. I do think most of my friends had four a levels - not least because a good chunk of us were at Cambridge doing Nat Sci rather than Oxford/somewhere else doing a specific subject because we wanted to put off choosing a bit longer.

I think it's also hard to know in advance how someone will thrive or not once they're at Cambridge, so I wouldn't necessarily assume your son wouldn't. Good A level grades don't guarantee you'll somehow find it okay or vice versa. I had very high grades at A level - 5 A*s plus general studies. I wasn't amazing at my degree at all and people who had done significantly less well at a level massively outshone me through my degree. I scraped a 2i in the end and it was fine but it was pretty much the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. It wasn't helped by the fact that I was very ill for the majority of my degree. Again that has plus sides and downsides. Living it wasn't that much fun, but I have amazing friends who are still super close, I think as a result of it. And whenever something is hard now I can look back and know, or rather really believe, that I can do it. Because I did that, so I can do anything.

Offer now is A star A star A - sorry getting stuck with the bolding above.

It also shows that despite all of that, a few candidates with three plain A levels got in.

Best to be realistic both about his chances and the pace of the course (I have a student child at Oxbridge who is at the lower end of the cohort for A level scores and it’s proving tough); but:

Being fired up about a subject is a Good Thing;
Nobody gets in without applying;
Some kids are on a ‘rising curve’ through A levels and just keep on upwards.