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Original poster

Choosing A'levels - what to do for law degree

161 replies

Okki · 08/10/2022 19:35

DD is currently choosing a 6th form/ college. She currently wants to study law with French at Uni, but we know this could change.

Her preferred A levels are

French
English literature
Music
History
Law
Psychology

Obviously she can't do 6. French she has to do, but she's bilingual so we have been advised by uni admissions she should do 4 A'levels as French will be regarded as the easy option for her.

She hadn't previously considered doing Music as an A'level but is now wondering if it would give her an edge over another humanities subject as it would show a different skill set.

I haven't a clue. I didn't go to university and don't really know how to advise her. DH went to uni in France where its all different.

She's predicted 8/9 for her GCSE Literature, history and Music. She has a 9 for French. She's also on the Oxbridge pathway at school, but we know the chances are slim to non existent for her to get in, but she would like an RG uni.

Can anyone give me any tips for how to advise her. I will ask school/ colleges as well, but some real life experiences would be good too. Thank you.

OP posts:
Lilacsunflowers · 10/10/2022 10:47

Our surname is originally French, but obviously sufficiently corrupted over the centuries since DH's paternal ancestor arrived here for no university DD applied to for 'and' or 'with' French degrees to suspect that she might speak it at home).

Many surnames will give no hints, especially if the mother speaks the language (and kids gave fathers surname)!

UneFilleDeBelleville · 10/10/2022 10:50

User84 · 10/10/2022 08:20

Just remember we see hundreds of CVs when recruiting trainee solicitors and junior solicitors. They all look the same - 10 grade A/A at GCSE, 3 A grades at A level. 2.1 or First expected at university from a well regarded university (not a former poly). They literally look identical in that regard since without those things you're unlikely to even get past the first sift.

We get dozens of applications for every place we have. It costs a fortune to train a trainee solicitor and its very difficult to do now with home working. We need to make sure they're up to the job.

We need some way to distinguish. We will note that A levels in maths, history, English Lit etc have been taken rather than law, communications, business studies, dance, media, textiles, drama, DT, psychology etc. We are older, some of those A Levels probably didn't even exist and if they did they would have been seen as easier subjects for those who were not as academically inclined. Law is tough as a career. Its academically challenging every single day (obviously not so much if you are doing domestic conveyancing since that's mainly process and form filling but firms increasingly use paralegals for this rather than fully qualified lawyers since it isn't cost effective otherwise).

Like it or not, we also look at your university. A first from Durham is going to be considered harder to have been achieved than a first from the University of Huddersfield - its a different cohort.

I understand parents in particular feeling defensive about the choices their DC have made. I understand sixth form tutors wanting to protect and defend their subjects. But there is no escaping the fact that these things do get noticed.

A child suggesting they want to be a lawyer who has overcome the first hurdle and achieved all 8/9s at GCSE should be guided appropriately. Their suggestion of Business should be guided to Economics, their suggestion of English Language should be guided to English Lit, their suggestion of Law should be guided to RE ( which is really ethics) etc.

I'd also suggest that any sixth former saying they want to do law spends a day sitting in court. It isn't like Suits.

I'm a lawyer in a city firm and am involved in grad recruitment. I agree with everything here, with the caveat that there is no point taking subjects which she doesn't enjoy or won't do well in.

We look for at least three traditional academic A levels with top grades. There's more flexibility with a fourth A level but even there tradition non-academic subjects would have the edge on newer ones (perhaps a perception that art or music A level shows a rounded person whereas business studies doesn't). I'm not saying at all that these other subjects have no value, only that it's extremely competitive and that lawyers (at least in the city) can be fairly traditional and perhaps somewhat inflexible.

I also agree about university choices. We look for a good degree from Oxbridge or one of around eight other universities. The subject isn't especially important as long as it's an academically rigorous one. We take about 50% law, 50% non-law (these percentages aren't fixed)- in the latter group there are lots of historians, Eng lit, PPE, linguists. We get very excited about maths/science grads as scientific knowledge among lawyers is often sorely lacking and is therefore highly prized (very useful in IP and competition and for dealing with clients in tech, energy, life sciences etc etc).

All of this applies to traditional city solicitors' firms. There are lots of other ways to be a lawyer and it may be that other routes are more flexible. I'd also add that there are of course exceptions to all of this and people who have stellar careers from non-traditional backgrounds.

ZandathePanda · 10/10/2022 10:57

User84 · 10/10/2022 10:47

Drama is a risky choice for anyone needing immaculate grades. Certainly at GCSE level and I'm assuming also at A Level. The group working element is something that you cannot fully control and it attracts kids who think it will be easy and want to mess about. You need to check the syllabus carefully to see how group work is handled.

I say this as a lawyer parent married to another lawyer with two DC wanting to be lawyers, one of whom is also a very keen actor.

Im not disputing that acting skills are useful, particularly if you're a litigator (most lawyers aren't). There are however other ways of getting public speaking skills. Debating society, Model UN, school plays etc

Ok…didn’t quite run. You make good points but remember A* are standardised to a point and there still needs to be those stars. However I think at A Level, with a big enough cohort, the mix should ensure group work allows the better candidates to work together. Depends on the school and the cohort.

User84 · 10/10/2022 11:27

A stars are not standardised across subjects and exam boards.

You're going to struggle to persuade any senior lawyer carrying out trainee recruitment that an A star in A Level Dance is as academically challenging (or useful) as an A star in A level Maths.

ZandathePanda · 10/10/2022 11:36

User84 · 10/10/2022 11:27

A stars are not standardised across subjects and exam boards.

You're going to struggle to persuade any senior lawyer carrying out trainee recruitment that an A star in A Level Dance is as academically challenging (or useful) as an A star in A level Maths.

Dance? I was talking about Theatre and Drama. Most of the coursework in Theatre and drama is the form of essays. The rest is learning a monologue and group work on a devised piece (which is assessed individually). The group work can be quite trying, and lead to intense conversations in the direction to take. Across A Levels this year around 15% were A stars in most subjects. You definitely have to be a good and persuasive essay writer. I rest my case.

reigatecastle · 10/10/2022 11:39

Zuma76 · 08/10/2022 20:13

Choose subjects she has the best chance of getting good grades in.

This. Law generally requires AAA these days, so you need to enjoy, and be good at, the A level subjects you do.

I know a few people who went on to study law from my school (at decent universities) and their A levels were as follows:

History, RE, English
History, RE, German
Biology, Chemistry, German
Economics, Chemistry, German

reigatecastle · 10/10/2022 11:40

We look for a good degree from Oxbridge or one of around eight other universities

Really? In this day and age? Do you not have D&I policies? Clearly not.

User84 · 10/10/2022 11:51

Really? In this day and age? Do you not have D&I policies? Clearly not.

No need, Oxbridge will do that for you. Most of their students are from state schools.

User84 · 10/10/2022 11:52

Dance? I was talking about Theatre and Drama.

You made the point that A levels are standardised. They're not.

DuchessOfSausage · 10/10/2022 11:56

Narrowing it down to a few universities doesn't mean that the recruitment isn't diverse or inclusive.

bonzaitree · 10/10/2022 11:58

It doesn't matter what alevels she does. The grades she gets matters a lot. So she should pick what she is good at.

bonzaitree · 10/10/2022 11:59

Although I agree alevels should be academic subjects not drama dance PE etc.

glassdarker · 10/10/2022 12:02

Lawyer here. Avoid Law and Psychology, go with traditional subjects.

Lilacsunflowers · 10/10/2022 12:05

We look for a good degree from Oxbridge or one of around eight other universities

Really? In this day and age? Do you not have D&I policies? Clearly not.

Why would you not want to recruit from the top institutions? Institutions that have very rigorous admissions policies, that are ranked highly, that produce great applicants, based on your previous experience?

Lilacsunflowers · 10/10/2022 12:08

It doesn't matter what alevels she does. The grades she gets matters a lot. So she should pick what she is good at.

It definitely does matter, as evidenced by many posters working in Law.

And French won't count as highly as she's bilingual!

Thiswayorthatway · 10/10/2022 12:13

I did French, German and English at A level before my Law degree. Law at A level not a must or an advantage. There’s A LOT of reading in a Law degree, distilling info down. So History also good.

UneFilleDeBelleville · 10/10/2022 12:13

reigatecastle · 10/10/2022 11:40

We look for a good degree from Oxbridge or one of around eight other universities

Really? In this day and age? Do you not have D&I policies? Clearly not.

Yes, we have D&I policies and very active diversity programmes, which include talking to kids before the point at which they make uni choices, to encourage academically-able kids to apply to top universities.

In some sectors, universities aren't even listed on applications. City law is not one of these and there is no realistic prospect of it becoming one any time soon. This is vital information for kids hoping for a career as city lawyers, and you can be sure that those children applying from "traditional" backgrounds (private schools etc) are given it. Pretending things are otherwise does nobody any favours and certainly doesn't increase inclusion.

Piggywaspushed · 10/10/2022 12:30

Well, one could be awkward and say the other way to increase inclusion is to drop all those requirements.

Seems no one can force this though and so diversity issues will continue.

Who does this 'talking to the kids'?

Crazykatie · 10/10/2022 12:40

Law as in Lawyer, Solicitor or Barrister is very tough, Law in conjunction with Business studies has a very wide application

bonzaitree · 10/10/2022 13:23

The way to succeed in law is to do traditional gcse subject and get top grades, then do academic alevels and get top grades and then go to red brick uni or better and get a 1st class degree then do a conversion and LPC\bar course and get 1st equivalent.

Even then it's still extremely competitive and you may not succeed.

Any derivation from the above will count against you. Going to a non Russel group uni, getting a 2:2, not doing "proper" alevels. All this will count against you.

As PP said, pretending it is different will not help people.

NashvilleQueen · 10/10/2022 13:29

You don't need law a level to do a law degree

You don't need a law degree to become a lawyer

I would advise to do what you love every time.

Phos · 10/10/2022 13:37

Sticking my neck out here and I think you said she’s made a choice but does she actually need to do French? I know she wants to do a course using it and it will usually be a pre-requisite but surely that is a pre-requisite set with students who don’t happen to be bilingual in mind and if she can demonstrate native level competence then she wouldn’t need to have the a-level.

Unless it really is a case of getting an A* relatively easily.

UneFilleDeBelleville · 10/10/2022 13:52

Piggywaspushed · 10/10/2022 12:30

Well, one could be awkward and say the other way to increase inclusion is to drop all those requirements.

Seems no one can force this though and so diversity issues will continue.

Who does this 'talking to the kids'?

That's not being awkward- it's a good point. But I think you're missing what I'm doing here, which is describing the situation as it currently is. I'm not saying it's the right way for things to be, only that it is how they currently are and it's a good idea for all applicants now to be aware of that, not just those coming to law through private or grammar schools. Giving people false or no information helps nobody.

It's a mix of trainee solicitors and HR who do it- finding the right balance is tricky though- it's great when trainees who have come from a non-traditional (for city law) background to be involved but in practice this means that those people do more than their share of this sort of non-chargeable work, which is obviously unfair.

Simply dropping requirements won't work as there are far more applicants than places as it is. Some sort of critical reasoning/thinking skills test might be an option, although the firms that use these at present tend to do so as well as wanting a particular set of A levels and degree.

To be honest, I think the way forward for D&I in city law is going to be more through legal apprenticeships than through the traditional route, as these sidestep all of this and avoid the awful scandal of self-funding LPC students being treated as a cash cow by law schools. But that's probably a discussion for another thread.

mastertomsmum · 10/10/2022 14:39

Basically, solid traditional choices of subject are what's needed to do Law at Uni. I don't understand why this is in dispute by some folk who have replied. Also, these are the subjects on offer almost everywhere.

reigatecastle · 10/10/2022 14:46

User84 · 10/10/2022 11:51

Really? In this day and age? Do you not have D&I policies? Clearly not.

No need, Oxbridge will do that for you. Most of their students are from state schools.

It's not just about private versus state, it's about having a wide range of possible recruits from different backgrounds. If you stick to eight universities you are closing yourselves off to a huge number of other good candidates, whether you take part in "cold spots" schemes or not. Still, all the better for other law firms which reap the benefit of actually opening up their recruitment to a wider range of candidates. Legal apprenticeships are good but tend to be given out to Black kids from sixth forms in south London, so still not very inclusive in their own way.

Many a City law firm thinks it's diverse but if you look a bit more closely you see that the lawyers are white, black African or posh Asian; the secretaries are Essex/south London white or Afro-Caribbean black, the IT guys are Indian (and are men) and the cleaners are South American. So they can tick lots of nice diversity boxes, but they're not really.

And you also find very little in the way of social background diversity among the lawyers. Delve a bit deeper and even if they went to a state comprehensive it will be in a leafy area, or a parent was a lawyer or doctor.

Who does this 'talking to the kids my employer takes part - doing presentations to Y11s and sixth formers in so-called "cold spots" where social mobility isn't great. I've done a couple myself.

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