Which history departments are most 'traditional'?

[PacificState]

Asking for a friend's son looking for UCAS advice. He's very political (conservative), objects to 'woke' discourse (sorry I know that's horrible shorthand - he's a nice kid - just quite libertarian).

Very interested in military - hoping to go on to Sandhurst post-degree, definitely army if he can.

He's already looking at War History degrees (King's and Hull) but not sure about remaining UCAS slots.

Do any history departments have a rep for being a bit more traditional these days? Maybe less social history, more 'great man' stuff, and robust on supporting a diversity of political opinion?

He's got good predicted grades, doesn't want Oxbridge.

Thank you

I may have misled with the term 'great man' - it was a phrase we used 30 years ago to describe the style of history that focuses on the agency of leaders/prime ministers/presidents/generals/monarchs, as opposed to the style of history that focuses on the agency and experience of 'the people' more broadly. Neither is wholly accurate, neither will give you a complete picture. Most people who are interested in history have a sneaking preference for one or the other. May well be an outdated term now!

The vibe in Edinburgh is more Ruth Davidson than Jacob Rees Mogg.

I think Durham would be a better fit.

He needs to look at the syllabus for each of the unis he's considering and make up his own mind about the course content/flexibility.

As a historian (as I'm sure you know) you're allowed a political opinion but a narrow worldview or narrow consideration of topics.

Is he afraid to study social and economic history in case it challenges his world view? He might find something to support it, you never know.

Don't you go to university to have your ideas challenged and your perceptions tested? So that you can build robust argument whilst empathising with different perspectives?

Sorry, but History doesn't sound like the right subject for him.

@JocelynBurnell. That's true of the Scottish students. DD doesn't mind a smart Scottish tory. It's the stupid ones who are only at Edinburgh as they couldnt get anything better (despite the good schooling) and have a right downer on all things Scottish from day 1. Edinburgh have upped their entry since DD started so going forward maybe more of the Ruth D and less of the Boho.

*Bojo.

Yes fair point @Whataretheodds and you might be right re not wanting to be challenged. I'm just not convinced that many humanities applicants really want to have their worldviews challenged - I don't think he's that unusual, he's probably just a bit more stubborn/honest about it. After all, really 'challenging' the worldview of the average 18 year old would involve an intensive course in the history of modern conservative thought and requiring them to rigorously assess its strengths and validities as well as weaknesses. I suspect not many history applicants are actively seeking courses with that sort of content. As a tremendously uninformed young lefty 17yo I definitely didn't.

Most military history these days is also less about guns and bombs. (Professional historian here…). We do get the odd kid who only wants to study this kind of history. The thing is that it also has to be intellectually creative. I have had students who can tell you obscure details of WW2 battles and want to write undergraduate dissertations on it and while that’s an impressive feat of memory- so what? I always encourage them to think beyond a compilation of facts and trivia. Ultimately if you want to study history you have to have some interest in broader processes and their impact on people and institutions (whatever side of the political spectrum you are on).

As an example you can’t surely study British military history without studying colonialism, decolonisation etc. Or even what the military itself was (one of my undergrads many many years ago wrote about homosexual American and British soldiers in WW2- it was a wonderful dissertation).

So he may find that even ‘traditional’ departments will encourage him to think beyond a narrow approach to history.

History and War Studies at Kings. Without a doubt based on what you have said. Lots of libertarian types on that course (most people were centrist and pro-humanitarian intervention). The course content and guest speakers would appeal to him too.

He will find the socially mainstream views you describe at 100% of British universities. People scoff at Durham and Exeter for being 100% rah and full of Tories- but it’s just as ‘woke’ as any other university. Yeah, you’ll have a bigger than average Conservative Future soc, but that’s it. The actual SU and ideology of the university, as well as the views of the vast majority of the student body will be very liberal.

But there is no suggestion that he wouldn't be interested in colonial aspects of military history, he just might (might) have a different perspective on it from most other history students. I don't get the impression that he doesn't want to study history properly, just that he doesn't want to be constantly the only one who initially comes at it from a liberertarian perspective or, more importantly, to become isolated/a social pariah because he does not have mainstream political views.

DS2 has just finished a History degree at St Andrews, its certainly got a very broad range of History modules available didn't seem overly woke when I looked at the course booklet. I think I remember some with a military angle. DS2 concentrated on Medieval and Early modern so wars did come up but no tanks and planes!
No shortage of Tories either...

In my experience, history is a subject that has a lot of Tories. Possibly because it is seen as a good general degree for entry into the professions, law, politics, journalism.

Sheffield btw which is excellent for history has a big focus on people's history and social history. Not a good fit at all.

Most War Studies courses I have seen are not sabre rattling. But he may be best doing that if he doesn't want to acknowledge that his Great Men were not indeed At All Great.

European History? They had a lot of wars that did not involve UK.
Sweden was THE Imperial Power. for a while, also Germany v Denmark.
Military engineering / Developments of weapons.
A more general History degree might be more useful to him and then develop the military interest at a higher level after a few years in the Army. He would then have access to more specialised info at Sandhurst or Shrivenham for a PhD.

Why would the army need someone with a PhD in history? I’d rather they educated people to defend us.

@PacificState DS just reminded me that the student who did the talk at Salford was off to Sandhurst after his degree

Durham, Edinburgh and Exeter and St Andrews have reputations for having the most boarding school / public school types. Not saying they will all be Tories by any means, but he may find the odd one from with a military family and that type of 'traditional' background?

Surely it's not only about the course modules because you can make if those whatever you will and write a dissertation on anything eventually. He will also need to find his 'tribe' socially.

What are his predicted grades?

Thanks very much all, some really interesting points and @MangshorJhol I'm curious about your specialism now!

He's predicted 3 x A*. Don't think he's doing an EPQ. So while I have never seen his work, he's obviously a proficient historian at A Level.

Thanks v much for the Salford info, that does sound up his street. He's got war studies at king's on his list already (and Hull, which he actually prefers I think)

@brianixon weirdly my in-laws live in shrivenham! Is there an institute there?

@brianixon DP has just reminded me that not only is there a military college there, but we drive past it every time we go. Total menopause brain.

@PacificState I don’t do anything similar to be utterly honest. I work on displacement/migration/diaspora (mainly among South Asian communities). Mostly I supervise undergrad dissertations on things related to my research but a lot of the time I don’t. I did an undergraduate degree in the UK but the rest of my education has been in the US and I am tenured here in the US (although I did a year long sabbatical recently teaching in the UK while doing some archival work in London and Leeds). I have a second year of teaching/research in the UK as part of a funding package for a grant but I’ll use that in a year or so just before my eldest hits middle school in the US.

If he’s looking at the Army post degree then is he also considering which unis play high level sports (BUCS super league)?
In my limited experience, the students looking to join the military post degree are involved in and play team sports at a high level. Though I appreciate this is based purely on DDs male friends.

Not sure the army look for any specific degree. DDs old primary school friend did Geography and went to officer training. Sports are a good idea. Another friend of DDs is in the army polo team.

@MangshorJhol thank you - sounds really interesting

Thanks for the advice re sports. Unfortunately as I understand it that's one area he's not keen on, but if it's very important maybe he needs to develop an interest!

DD is looking at history, she definitely does not want traditional history and also enjoys politics. From this POV she has ruled out York, so that might be worth a look. I'll ask her for her non choices later when she surfaces.

I'd also look at how modules are chosen, the uni may have list of very appealing modules, but in reality some won't run, some will be limited by other choices and the worst thing we've seen is module selection was voted on by the tutor group.

DD likes Birmingham Uni, their modules seemed very flexible after the first year - which would suit someone either way.

Re army and sports, the chap I knew who joined the army post uni was v into outward bounds sort of stuff , canoeing, hiking rather than team sports . I think the key thing is being v fit.

Not sure about the history question, dd wants to do history but is more into the social side of things.