This year's university places for dc at private school - what's the reality been?

[Thedogisdrivingmemad]

I'm reading and hearing lots of anecdotal information suggesting it's got much tougher for private school pupils to get top university offers. Things like "hardly anyone at dd's [private] school got an offer for Durham this year".
If you have dc at private school who've just left year 13, how has it been for your dc and their friends?

@Thedogisdrivingmemad it's happening because more state school pupils are now applying because of the outreach work being done. So these kids now think it's possible, so have a go. That means more apply, so more get offers. Which means less private school students will do. The size of the competition pool has increased for the same number of places. Most if those state school kids will not get any kind of contextual stuff and still need the same grades as private school.

You did Mumsneed - my post was more directed at those who might make the assumption based on that data that the NLCS issue/approach applied very broadly.

So it seems, to summarise, that there is a decline in offers being made by top universities but it is more about disadvantaged vs advantaged pupils, regardless of state vs private, plus more international students and the bulge in the population of 18 year-olds.

Our non selective state school had its highest number of students into medicine and oxbridge this year. The sixth form has grown in the last couple of years tho so a little tricky to compare. Apparently higher than two of the local private schools (though they have slightly smaller sixth forms). All a bit anecdotal but I don’t have any graphs.

Crossed posts there.

Ha yes! Also haven’t the top unis made fewer offers this year as they are still dealing with the crazy bulge years? I’ve definitely heard of kids only getting 2 offers this year and not the 4-5 of previous years (private and state)

@sevenwonder I did find SPS, thank you- seems like they under inflated last year ! 95.5% A star /A is remarkable - must feel terrible getting a B ! Would still love to see NCLS results though.

@Thedogisdrivingmemad I'd agree with your analysis 100%. Been a tough year all round.

Yes to the private school habit of massively over predicting grades with impunity. This massively benefitted private school pupils in 2020 when those massively over predicted grades stood as their actual A level grades. State sixth forms were put under pressure to apply a much stricter approach to setting the teacher assessed grades and had to comply as they are state funded. Private schools faced no such pressures and were free to set grades as high as they wished.

There really is no discrimination against private school pupils at universities but maybe you are just noticing a difference now that the blatant advantages they gained during the period of teacher assessed grades have disappeared?

I don't know how many got into Oxbridge from SPS this year. I think it might be about 30 if I remember rightly what a mum with a child there told me? But not sure. Sorry to go on about this particular school and I have nothing to do with it but I'm just using it as an example. Could also be Westminster or a few others.

By way of direct comparison, on the face if it, you could say - SPS: 95% A star / A and 30 Oxbridge places. Brampton Manor (super selective state): 90% A star / A and 85 Oxbridge places.

I'm sure it's not as simple a comparison as this is as I have a feeling the Brampton Manor Year 13 is much bigger than the SPS Year 13. Also I'm the first to say Oxbridge entry is not the be-all-and-end-all and many high achievers in both schools will have applied elsewhere for all sorts of reasons. But nevertheless, Oxbridge numbers do more easily lend to a rough comparison between a high- performing state and a high-performing independent and I'd be interested to know what proportions (rather than numbers) are receiving Oxbridge offers in either school. Anyone know how many are in the Year 13 at Brampton Manor? or SPS?

None of my sons' friends applied to the trad posh kid unis like Durham, St Andrews or Exeter. They're going to unis like Nottingham, Leeds, Birmingham and Newcastle. Still redbrick but not just for posh kids. They all got A*s/As.

I think they'll all get a decent Uni education and jobs.

Incidentally I think the advantages they got from their private education were huge. Someone who gets the same results from a non selective state school deserves a better chance of getting into the best unis.

State sixth forms were put under pressure to apply a much stricter approach to setting the teacher assessed grades and had to comply as they are state funded. Private schools faced no such pressures and were free to set grades as high as they wished.

This isn't true. Schools set out their approach to assessment which had to be signed off by the relevant exam boards. Schools submitted their grades, which could potentially be moderated down by the exam boards. This was regardless of type of school.

Who do you think was putting pressure on state sixth forms? We were basically left to it. That the exam board apparently signed off on these private school results which look obviously dodgy is something that should be investigated, but probably won't be.

Not sure how many SPS have but Brampton Manor have more ! Probably the size of SPS !
And lots from SPS will go abroad for Uni (because they can afford it - BM lot can't).

@noblegiraffe I think we put ourselves under the pressure to be accurate. Because it seemed fair and right. We made our lot actually sit exams - when a parent challenged the results we were praised by OFQUAL and told our model was exemplary, fair and equitable for all.

mumsneedwine lots of private schools (such as mine) were rigorous too. As were lots of state 11-18 schools (I tutored kids as 3 different schools and have friends who teach in another 2).

There is no doubt that some schools (state and private) didn't care about fairness and integrity in 2020 and 2021, but that is true of both sectors.

I think this year there were a lot of students who missed grades by small amounts and would normally get in but didn't this year. It's easy to think it's because they're at private school and so not given as much benefit of the doubt, but realistically it's far more likely that there's just more competition this year.

mumsneedwine - yes there is definitely a growing trend for students from London day schools to be heading to the US for uni. Mainly, as you say, because they can afford it. This, as ever, is the bottom line. The fees are extortionate! Surprisingly though, there are so many awards and scholarships available at these Ivy Leagues, few end up paying anywhere near the full fees. It's crazy what they can get scholarships for, from what I hear. Also, the reason so many apply, I think, is because they have parents who themselves studied over there and this is just what they know - the tried and tested path for them!

The schools mine were / are in tend to recommend either doing US applications or Oxbridge but definitely not both as they are totally different processes requiring quite different hops to jump through and it's just too much to do both.

The other reason the US appeals to some is you can apply for as many unis as you like. You are not limited to 5 UCAS choices. Also, the degree programmes are broader.

@FacebookPhotos I did very very clearly say some. However the biggest inflation of grades was at private schools. By quite some amount (28% compared to 7%).

@sevenwonder but to access Unis in America you have to pay to apply. That rules all my students out. We get funding for UCAS not anywhere else.

Yes that's true. If it say £50 to apply, it quickly adds up if you are applying to 10 or 20 US unis!

To me, it sounds exhausting applying to the US as kids tend to start very early in order to build up evidence of Community Work, Achievement in Sport and all the other numerous things they have to provide evidence of. I saw them starting up lunchtime clubs so they could say they had "founded a society" as apparently, this is another category. Not to mention the endless practise for the SATs or the ACT on top of all the A-level work. Some can afford to go on hugely expensive summer schools at Ivy Leagues and do so from about Year 11. Basically, it seems to me, that they have to "brand" themselves and tell a quirky / attention-grabbing story on the personal statements that makes them stand out. Every uni has its own essay to write in this kind of manner. As I say, it makes UCAS and Oxbridge look quite straightforward by comparison!

Not sure of your figures here?

@noblegiraffe was from the stuff posted earlier in this thread. To be honest I think it varies more between schools. Ours were up 1.7% in 2022 on 2019, but are up 9% this year on 2022. So statistics mean nothing really. Looking at those individual schools who inflated grossly did make me angry though.

@noblegiraffe this, which was from BBC website. I know hate stats are not great things to go in.

"According to England's exam regulator, Ofqual, 58% of private school candidates in England were awarded A* and A grades, compared with 30.7% of state school pupils.
Fee-paying schools did particularly well last year when teachers' assessments were the basis for A-level grades.
In 2021, some 70.4% of private school pupils were given A grade or above, compared with just 39.4% of state schools."

Bare, not gate stats (although I do hate stats !!)

@sevenwonder - actually the number of Brampton Manor Oxbridge offers has crept up in recent days, I assume due to the Summer pool. At the last count it was 92 according to their Twitter feed (up from 85 earlier in the week).

I take my hat off to all those hardworking Brampton Manor students getting in. They are getting the grades and fully deserve their places.

I think grade inflation was more down to individual schools than what sector they are in. I know an independent around here that definitely did inflate grades more than average inflation nationally. But equally, there is a local - ish sixth form that didn't even attempt to hold exams and the grade inflation was ridiculous.