AS result and Uni offers

[Hopeful646]

Hi , my DS got his Further Maths AS result yesterday which was a B , whilst this is an excellent grade he was hoping for an A .
He is wanting to study Physics at uni , the unis he is considering all have high entry requirements (2 A stars and an A ) as he was predicted this he thought applying to those would be ok but he's now worried he won't get offers as his AS is only a B .
Does anyone have any experience as to how much notice the uni's take of the AS grade ?. Thank you

The 4 A level thing, if it were a hard requirement, would also work against a lot of state school applicants wouldn't it?

That's why they can't 'require' it!

However if your school offers it, then you're expected to take it. In fact, you'd ideally enjoy taking it.

Really appreciate all your comments - thank you . Sone good points made and lots for him to think about when he goes back in a few weeks .
It's a fine balance between aiming high with his uni choices and being realistic . I'm happy for him where ever he goes and I certainly don't get hung up on RG unis etc .
Think the B in FM AS has made him question a few things , should he drop to 3 A levels , should he look again at his uni choices and that's not a bad thing . Thanks again

@Hopeful646 End of yr12 is a good time to sensecheck if he is on the right path. Maths &FM are very popular A levels and many students achieve Astar & A (I'm always surprised by the very high percentage - over 50%) so he will be competing with a large number of students who are likely to get top grades.

He should consider aspirational, realistic and insurance options so that he has a good chance of a Uni next year.

Maths &FM are very popular A levels and many students achieve Astar & A (I'm always surprised by the very high percentage - over 50%)

Yes, the proportion of A stars in FM is always surprisingly high - I guess it's because mostly those who really enjoy Maths choose FM?

@Hopeful646 you need to find out whether your DS is essentially required to take FM: will it be held against him if he does not? When FM is recommended but not required, this is often the meaning of the phrase. I am a bit concerned about what that B says for his ability to hold his own in the most competitive Physics or Nat Sci degree programmes. (If he hasn’t been working or just had a bad day that’s a different thing, but there is still the question of his PGs.)

Thanks very much @pinklavenders and @MarchingFrogs. It is interesting that Cambridge Economics and LSE are your sources, because these do want gifted mathematicians. But LSE is a red herring as explained below.

The funny thing about FM is that for gifted pupils it isn’t another full AL, especially if they are also doing Physics and elect Mechanics modules in FM. (Presuming they can still do this - I am not au courant with AL material since coming off Admissions.) But for the less gifted, the synergies are less obvious and FM is very full on. So the four AL requirement is a subtle filter.

For Economics the need for writing skills is a good rationale. I agree with @PacificState that enough pupils in state schools are prohibited from taking four ALs that, unless it is acceptable for pupils applying to Cambridge Econ and programmes with similar policies to forego FM, these policies are discriminatory.

But at LSE Maths, FM + one more AL appear to make you less competitive only in the highly non quantitative Group 4 degree programmes. FM is a pretty poor choice of AL for those programmes anyway.

Most successful applicants at Imperial College will have 4 (or more) A levels.

There's a lot of very bright students out there who manage (and enjoy) the challenges of 4 A levels, so why shouldn't they get the chance to do so?

There is no reason they should not have this chance if they prefer, as long as they understand the risk they are taking. But it is wrong for a university to discriminate against able pupils who do not have an equal opportunity to strut their stuff, because their school has a three AL policy. That is my only concern ( well, that and the self handicapping of the slightly less able - those whose grades do suffer from doing four subjects)

Back when the A grade was much rarer than it is now and A star did not exist, DH had a four A offer from Cambridge. He was at a selective school that sent about half of its pupils to uni, very high for the times, and about half of those to Oxbridge. He thought the offer perfectly reasonable owing to the quality of the teaching he received. I was educated abroad and prefer the baccalaureate system. So I have no skin in this game

I was also educated abroad and had a much 'broader' education. I find the very focused (only 3-4 subjects) very limiting, especially for those children that are all rounders - it's not always easy to drop so many subjects at 16.

... the very focussed UK approach

My son did maths, FM and CS. Before dropping physics he contacted I think Oxford and Imperial admissions for maths and computer science to ask whether 3 was a problem. They all said no issue. He didn’t apply to either but did get an offer from Cambridge on the basis of 3 A levels. (He declined it and accepted an offer from elsewhere, same grades.)

Before dropping physics he contacted I think Oxford and Imperial admissions for maths and computer science to ask whether 3 was a problem. They all said no issue.

As stated earlier, no University will 'demand' 4 A levels as not all schools offer this option.

But the vast majority of students who get offers at Imperial or Oxbridge WILL have 4 A levels (or 5).

Yes, but if you're doing 3 they will make your offer based on 3 and it won't count against you. It doesn't matter how many A levels other people are doing.

Oxford will only make an offer on 3 A levels. If you're doing 4, Cambridge may give you an offer for all 4, so if you have a slightly less strong one, dropping it might be a tactical move. (My son just didn't really like physics!)

@atiaofthejulii has identified the nub of it. Who cares about other people's offers? Maybe some insecure Year 1 students, but not the ones worth knowing. And they will quickly grow out of it.

Oxbridge and to a lesser extent Imperial are about true intellectual passion, much as I hate the phrase. If you have great supracurriculars, good IMO results, etc or just a lot of demonstrable knowledge around your subject, you don't need the fourth AL. Of course this isn't to knock those who have it! But there is nothing inherently superior about having four ALs. We assess the whole of the applicant.

Unis are very happy with the EPQ and STEM lecturers would like to see more take this option. Especially as we are marking UG project after UG project with good content but poor writing.

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Yes, but if you're doing 3 they will make your offer based on 3 and it won't count against you. It doesn't matter how many A levels other people are doing.

But it does matter if most other applicants are offering 4 A levels and are just as passionate about their subject (as those offering only 3).

@pinklavenders that’s a very subtle question. I don’t think it can be answered with statistics, as it is qualitative and we really do assess the whole person. I would really love to be able to tell Mumsnetters, who are here simply to help their DC, that 4ALs is the way to go. But in good conscience I can’t.

One hypothesis is that selective schools encourage 4 ALs for their generically strong applicants who can’t be called exceptional in any sense. (I am leaving out Cambridge Economics and other exceptional programmes discussed above, and I think we agree that for gifted mathematicians Maths, FM, Physics is about 2.5 ALs whilst for others it is a heavy 3.) The blunt reality is that Oxbridge and Imperial aren’t all that interested in these applicants: they want the exceptional ones. Whether the latter have 3 or 4 ALs - and let’s not forget the desirability of the EPQ - is not really that important. Representing your country, conducting research, reasonable publication(s) significant performances, etc: all trump a 4th AL any day of the week.

It is a question of degree; it is something the public seldom hear about; and where it shades off is the judgment of admissions tutors.

Schools have decided that 4 ALs is the way to go; elite unis have not foisted this approach on them. But the best Oxbridge acceptance rate in the U.K. is typically 50% and that is at one famous, expensive boys’ school. Everywhere else you are more likely to be rejected than accepted, and a school acceptance rate of 25% is superb. Meanwhile Imperial accepts about 14% of its students and Warwick similarly. It doesn’t look to me like taking 4ALs is getting pupils very far on the whole.

@poetryandwine Yes, I understand what you're saying and agree that the top Unis (Cambridge, Imperial) are looking for 'exceptional' applicants!

That's why they interview candidates and have their own tests - a much better way to gauge passion and ability imo. Grades are less relevant, as are the number of A levels - I agree with you.

From what I've seen though, a lot of successful applicants at Imperial seem to have taken 4 Alevels (including FM). It would be interesting to find out the actual number?!

@pinklavenders My sister’s one! 4 A levels inc FM. She did Maths, FM, Physics and Chemistry. Just about to start her second year of Design Engineering at Imperial

Not all those studying economics at Oxbridge have FM or straight A*s at A level or more than 3 A levels.

Your DS needs to be realistic in his applications, as it's foolhardy to only apply to the top tier. Don't take any offer for granted. DD was rejected by Edinburgh on the day she was looking around her future Oxbridge college.