This board can be a bit intimidating but ...

[ButtonintheBox]

what the hell - I'll give it a go 🙂

DD17 isn't naturally academic but she's a grafter and passionate about studying.

She wants to do French and History at University (neither DH nor I went to uni but are very supportive).

Her predicted grades at end of Year 12 were A (psychology) B (history) and B (French). French teacher says they will give her extra support to get A.

Most of the posters on this board have A* kids and I'm just wondering if DD is setting herself up for disappointment 😞

EPQ - good idea but she has 3 NEA this term so I think it might be best if she concentrates on them and tries to raise her History grade.

Wow, that is a lot of work @ButtonintheBox! DD's geography NEA was about 6,000 words and took up a lot of time.

IMO students taking subjects requiring NEAs don't need to do an EPQ as well because they will develop the same skills from researching and developing ideas from their NEAs. The experience will be very helpful for when they have dissertations to write at university.

A PP upthread mentioned WIWIKAU. It is a Facebook page whose members have students of all abilities and is far more representative of academic ability than many mumsnet threads. I feel that a lot of the higher education posts on here are heavily weighted towards students studying law and similar subjects and the assumption is that they all want to work in a big city firm in London.

In real life however, this is not the case.

I have also found that once you join the higher education threads on here with parents with DC who are in the same cohort they are very supportive with more of a mix of DC with various academic ability.

I wish your DD lots of luck in whatever she chooses.

How can you see what is in Clearing? Is that info readily available?

@bare yes. Clearing has been available since Extra closed on July 18th (ish - forgot the exact day )

She will find many courses. Just be aware how hard French is if you aren't the strongest. One of my DD's is at a Russell group university on bbc for instance (not French)

If she can travel to france eg to work in a hotel or similar between a levels and degree it would be very helps

OP,

Now that we know your DD’s super PG’s I’ve had another look at other, stronger options she might want to consider. In no particular order:

The London uni with the strongest rep in the Humanities is UCL. Even your DD’s earlier PG’s met their stated admissions requirements, somewhat to my surprise. Now she is looking like a star. Their only Joint Hons programme involving French is French and Art History so I don’t know what she would think of that.

Also U London has a degree programme in French that is offered in Paris, for the ultimate Study Abroad experience.

I had briefly mentioned Edinburgh. Turns out they have a programme in French and Francophone Studies. The latter incorporates history, philosophy, culture, etc. It looks very interesting. The standard offer appears to be either AAA or AAB.

Finally, given PG’s of A star AA, what does she think about applying to Oxford? (A better city than Cambridge IMO.) The stated admission requirement for French - they offer degrees in both Language and Literature - is AAA. (In practice it could be higher.).

Now, most qualified applicants will be rejected so everyone applying must do so robustly. I remember you started this thread by characterising your DD as a bit of a swot, but you also said she has a passion for learning and this is what Oxford want. The tutorial system could be just the thing for her. She already knows how to work hard. Time and time again I have seen students rise to a challenge.

If she is at a school that sends a number of pupils to Oxbridge and trusted teachers really think it would be too much for her, I as her parent would give that serious consideration. But schools that don’t know much about the Oxbridge system tend to overestimate the giftedness of their students. Of course more than an average share are brilliant, but plenty of others have been sweating and prepping with the best teachers and private tutors for years. It sounds like your DD has been self motivated. Don’t let anyone sell her short.

"And her "target" grades are A*AA. Not sure what they are"

I would ask your daughter / the school how these are worked out. At the last two places I've worked (sixth form college with over 3,000 students and a school with a large sixth form over 600 students), students have had three sets of grades.

1. Predicted grades. These are often based on ALPS and are what the student is most likely to get,

1. Target grades. This is what the student is aiming for and wants to achieve. Depending on how realistic the student is, depending on how likely they are. Usually they are aspirational to encourage the student to work hard for the highest grades (for them).

1. UCAS grades (one institution put them on reports, the other did not). These are higher than the predicted grades, they tend to be what we think a good student can do on a good day with a good paper. But they are based on evidence rather than just what the student wants. So often, higher than the predicted grades but often not as high as target grades.

Eg My Daughter:
Predicted: D /A / B
Target: D * / A / A
UCAS: D * / A / B

Your daughter's school might not do this, the target grades might be her UCAS grades, but equally they could not, so probably worth checking before you plan too far ahead.

That should be Target was Distinction star, A* and A

If your DD is interested in a city university, Edinburgh would be an excellent choice:

Edinburgh - MA French and History - Requirements: AAA-AAB

Another very good option is Manchester

Manchester - BA History and French- Requirements: AAB

UCL is also excellent but I think you ruled out London.

Good advice above. I know you’re not looking at London due to cost which is fine. One of mine is desperate to go to London to do something creative an ultimately not very lucrative!

anyway not wanting to sound patronising but don’t assume Oxbridge is expensive. It’s actually cheaper that most major cities as generally rents are reasonable, terms relatively short (intense) and there is a lot of college accommodation (you do have to move out at end of each term).

As poetry says most applicants with excellent grades don’t get a place and some people just don’t want to go or don’t like what’s on offer but don’t let cost out you off.

Sorry, OP. Forgot London isn’t on the table.

But maybe Paris is?

Hi, @heddgiemum My comments above were based on the exchange between @mumsneedwine and the OP on p3 of this thread. The OP said upon reading the Guidance Notes that the TGs will be the UCAS grades.

I’m writing because I am curious about the system you use in teaching - on the Admissions side we make no distinction between the terms’PGs’ and ‘UCAS grades’ . How does distinguishing them help the pupil?
I see a risk that they will make unrealistic applications.

It’s a genuine question - I realise none of us invented the systems we must work within. TIA

PS I am a big supporter of post results applications! Yes, it can be made to work.

@poetryandwine unfortunately every school will do things differently. Not helpful for Unis.
At my current school we give the FFT grades produced from GCSE results and will never usually go below these for UCAS predictions (there is the odd exception). We may give higher if merited.
My DDs 6th form college used year 12 exam results, if firmly in that grade you got it and if in grade by more than half they'd round predict the next grade up.
My other DDs school uses a mixture of both.
We are normally about 80% correct with our predictions, which is not bad as we do this over 7 months before they sit exams and a lot can happen in that time.
Not sure post results will ever be possible for those subjects that interview. Be a v v tight turnaround. But would make everyone's life's a lot easier !

And we only give predicted grades (same as UCAS) and working at grades. They are often v different ! But we know that students v often pull it out of the bag at the last minute.

@poetryandwine

"I’m writing because I am curious about the system you use in teaching - on the Admissions side we make no distinction between the terms’PGs’ and ‘UCAS grades’ . How does distinguishing them help the pupil?
I see a risk that they will make unrealistic applications."

Tbh, it doesn't really help the student!

Where I am, predicted grades are the bottom line the student should be getting. It's based on their ALPS prediction (but even that is political), so the bottom grade they should be achieving is this. If they don't, then that's how we're judged for our pay rises. At my last school (top achieving, OFStEd outstanding in every category) students getting their predicted grades would have been a disaster... students need to get much higher for the school to retain its place as one of the highest achieving state schools in the country. So students were encouraged to set ambitious target grades and to work towards those. Both were set by Xmas in year 12 and then adjusted throughout the year, and then UCAS grade was based on a mix of the two, depending on what the student needed. How hard they were working etc....

Where I am now, it's even more complicated with attainment grades (the grades the students are currently working at) and achievement grades (the grade the teacher thinks the student is most likely to get).

But yeah, I'm not sure how it really helps students either.... and I too would prefer a post results UCAS application process. Would save an awful lot of stress for the teachers as well as the students!

@heddgiemum your pay is linked to results ? Wouldn't get away with that at my school - no one would agree to teach the lower sets ! Seems v v unfair as a lot of the students lives are out of your control.

Thanks, both. This is very interesting but seems quite a burden on teachers. @mumsneedwine that is impressive accuracy! I agree that linking pay to PGs at @heddgiemum’s (old) school seems unwise and a bit undignified.

Any viable post results admissions system will involve a shorter academic year for the Y1 students, even if there is some creative juggling. But Y1 results count for little or nothing towards the degree classification, and brainstorming with colleagues we think the shortfall could be held to about six weeks.

That seems worth it for a fairer, easier admissions process.

Oxbridge with its short academic calendar takes a bit more thought. Y1 would probably have to be offset from the main academic year and that might be impossible to coordinate with the other commitments academics have.

If A levels could be sat and/or reported earlier there would be less of a problem with timings. I have no idea how much give there is in the system. At uni we mark to very tight timetables.

I agree it would be easier. But I have a medic and a vet DD and the application process for both is long ! Entrance exams, interviews, extra forms. And couldn't really shorten the 1st year and still get all the content in that's required by the legal bodies. Sure for non interview subjects it would be doable but not sure how you fix the ones that require it 🤷‍♀️

And A levels are marked externally so nothing to do with schools (except it's teachers who mark them while still teaching !)

For what it's worth, my ABC-grade kid is flying at university, unlike his anxious sibling who has (much) higher A-level grades. Decent RG university, too, and a similar course to your daughter's preference.

@mumsneedwine We interview, too. If applications are ready to go out upon receipt of grades (say, in two weeks) it can be done. (The schools would need to submit little data and their work could be done in advance.) This is why every week matters and all stakeholders would need to cooperate - admissions tutors would be working flat out for a period of time under any such plan. But tend to like it, not least because it is much more fair.

Interviews can be highly compressed and there would be a lot fewer of them. Any School willing to extend the academic calendar for Y1, in various ways, can make up the shortfall. My gang envisioned that ours would get a few weeks of our Autumn term and start Spring Term in Jan as their seniors do exams, with only one set of exams in our School for Y1. Obviously details are local, or would be fixed nationally.

Most Schools could do fewer interviews on a compressed timetable and make up time this way, but I take your point concerning legal requirements. I know Medical lecturers who would like to change to a post results system so assume that they believe they could make it work. I think they are also driven by a sense that it is more equitable.

The short Oxbridge academic calendar remains a problem. That is really too bad, because IMO it would be much fairer for applicants to be offered the chance to sit their specialised entrance exams - eg the notorious STEP - before interview. Then if you don’t meet the standard fair enough; you aren’t left wondering whether it was being struck dumb by your august surroundings that did you, a kid from a rough comp with no one to help you prepare, in. (Tuition is another question.)
Rant over!

@poetryandwine that sounds possible. Trouble with medicine is that doctors interview and they are quite busy so hard to fit interviews in. But if it could be done with UCAT etc then it would be a better system post results. Maybe one day.

And Oxbridge interviews are on line again this year so that's v simple. I don't like on line medic interviews as doesn't allow kids to show all the skills and gives a leg up to the super confident and trained on video skills (wonder who they might be !).

@poetryandwine
As DD did French there is no way Paris is the ultimate place to do the year abroad if going to a university. The Sorbonne is obviously known but living in Paris is ultra expensive and DD’s friends didn’t feel the French students integrated with the year abroad ones much. It’s definitely style over substance.

She was advised Switzerland was a better bet and it’s a bit like Oxbridge: her Swiss university subsidised accommodation which was fantastic. Food is pricier but it evens out. At her university you got the university rooms vacated by Swiss students on their year abroad and that works well. The universities are well run and very organised. Paris really might not be the ultimate if you are in dreadful accommodation in a distant suburb.