Trigger warning - Deaths/suicides at uni

[GreenLunchBox]

After being shocked/saddened by some close to home uni deaths this year I did a search and it seems it's not rare. Five at Cambridge
just by July this year, for example www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/11/university-of-cambridge-launches-inquiry-after-five-suspected-suicides

Someone did a recent series of freedom of information requests and most unis have a few deaths each year, with suicide being a common cause

Does anyone know if the rate is higher than in the general population in this age group? If so, is it a problem that's getting worse, and what can we do about it?

@Crocsandshocks
You really should not equate a student loan with a standard commercial loan from a bank. A student loan is not always paid off and repayments depend on income. It is not repaid by the due date irrespective of income. So no, it’s not the same and most people are happy to refer to it as a grad tax. You may never pay back anywhere near 3 x £9000 plus maintenance. It really is not debt in the conventional sense. It’s irresponsible to say it is. Martin Lewis has a good overview of how it works. That said, the new proposals are not great but it’s not putting anyone off!

How on earth could you take out loans to pay for living costs and university fees when you didn’t earn anything? In the uk you probably would not have got it. There were no university fees then so what did you pay? Why was it ok for you to get loans which had to be paid off but deny others the chance to go to university via an assessed universal system where either the student or the state pays? Most people could never have a commercial loan to pay for education.

You can call it a graduate tax or call it what you want. The fact is it is an added pressure that wasn't there before the review of HE. Many universities in Europe offer free education at University level. We are like the US now but without the generous endowments and scholarships available there. There is an inherent issue with the system. This surely cannot help students mental health.

We've actually got higher tuition fees than the US now. We've got the highest in the world now as they've been tripled under the tories. I'm struggling to think of anything positive the tories have done for the young actually with school funding cuts and brexit. I guess constantky announcing they are making things worse for students must appeal to their members

They recently announced that students will be paying back for 40 instead of 30 years too and they are lowering the salary at which you start paying in real terms

That’s like saying student MH is all about the loans, and if really is not. Plenty of people worry about money at university and it’s usually because parents cannot or will not pay their contribution. It’s not the loan system which exerts no pressure on students.

We cannot have it all ways. We need to pay somehow. From taxation, people without the benefit of degrees pay and they earn less than degree holders. Although their well-being will benefit from some degree holders in some jobs. We all believe degrees are good. So, in order for lots of people to attend university, we have a hybrid of tax payers and student loan payers. Low post grad income - no payments. High earnings, yes, you pay..

We do know 50% do not pay it back so the taxpayer pays. What evidence is there that thinking about paying a relatively small monthly sum leads to student suicide? Some grads pay very little. If grads are told lies and make to think it’s a debt, and it’s bad, they might worry about the future, but what is the evidence that suicides are caused by such concerns?

It might not be the best system but we don’t have the endowments of USA universities so cannot emulate them. Universities might appear cheaper elsewhere but foreign Dc still like to come here. Germany had 664 student suicides between 2016 and 2021. Seems German students might not worry about loans, but certainly, tragically, worry about other issues.

Kids at Oxbridge have always had higher levels of suicide. I tried to off myself in my first year at Oxford in 2005, unsuccessfully obviously. The following year my housemate tried it. We lived with another girl who was an alcoholic med student. In my final year, a boy on my course tried to kill himself just before Finals by jumping out of his window into the greenhouse below. Shattered the greenhouse, didn’t die, had to sit the Finals anyway in September.

That’s like saying student MH is all about the loans, and if really is not
No one at all has said it's all about the loans.

@IdasFlowers
Well no. Slight hyperbole there. However blaming the government for setting up a system for more to go to university seems somewhat besides the point. There’s little evidence I can find that the loan system drives suicides. So many other things are at play and obviously severe anxiety and MH issues before university are far more common issues and are very complex. As I said earlier: do we went wider participation at university or not? I do think some dc are not suited to university but we needed to find a way to find poorer Dc who deserve to go.

It is as @TizerorFizz says a hugely complex problem and there is a shocking lack of evidence as to cause. As student suicide rates are no higher than rates amongst non students of their age group one would be hard pressed to make a case that the loans are a significant factor. Not that I am defending the current system, but I think it is misunderstood.

The continental countries with free or low cost HE also run on an entirely different model. Living at home is the norm and there is often a near absence of pastoral care for students. In some countries Year 1 attrition rates approaching 50% are considered acceptable. In many of these countries middle class aspirations are less linked to degree pathways.

I don't think you can understate just how horrendous the way covid panned out for students could be for those who were vulnerable and wobbly away from home for the first time either. My cohort went into second year for the "peak" restrictions year, so at least we'd established friendship groups and the like - but even those who'd organised house shares with their friends, and were looking forward to those, even in the context of locking down with them - came close to breaking in a lot of cases, where tensions got so fraught and the combination of usual academic pressures, coupled with ever-changing rules, and lots of cases of local communities blaming students for rising rates - it was a horrible time for lots of them (our mob returned to campus with half the course not on speaking terms with the others). If you were an outlier who commuted in, or wasn't with a tight group, it was horrifically isolating and absolutely relentless. I ended up in counselling (thankfully my uni waits weren't TOO horrible and the counsellor was really good) and on anti-depressants to get through that year.

The poor first years though who came onto campus only to find themselves sat on a laptop in a bedroom and campus to be the most horribly unwelcoming place ever (there were 10 signs leading up to our uni library asking if our trip was essential and barking orders)... as a student who was a parent myself - I was quite worried for lots of them.

We were lucky in that our course was so small and close knit that staff and fellow students could really keep a bit of a watch out for each other - but with courses with larger intakes it was a perfect storm for those who would naturally have floundered a bit and then found their tribes.

Excellent point, @CoffeeWithCheese.

@CoffeeWithCheese
I totally agree. I’m not sure what the stats show for 20/21 students but in the general population I would expect far more MH issues leading to catastrophic events. Young people have really sacrificed a lot.

@poetryandwine
I do find it odd that so many people use outdated terminology around university finance. I think, perhaps, far more effort should go into explaining the loan system to parents and potential students and some reasoned explanation of why we have chosen this form of finance and how we have opened up courses for so many young people. It’s never black and white but I suspect we cannot go back to no fees for students. That doesn’t mean that we cannot explain how the system works so everyone is clear. Parents should be involved so they understand their role too.

Yes,@TizerorFizz I am not British but a number of British friends who were first gen uni in the no fee or lower fee days say they would not have been allowed to pursue HE at the current fee levels. They and their DPs would have been scared off by the gross debt.

I believe that way of thinking still exists, and while I do not think the current system is optimal I do think it is manageable for most regardless of background - provided their health and dedication are robust enough that they will succeed on a reasonably pragmatic degree programme. (By no means do I rule out Humanities with that statement!)

Friend was at Oxford in the seventies it happened then

@poetryandwine
Thats cultural dislike of debt! Clearly greater knowledge of bank/payday loan criteria and student loans is needed. It wouldn’t have put off DH. He just had to put up with his parents not paying their assessed contribution towards his maintenance despite no mortgage and both of them working. Student poverty is more often caused by this. He worked in the holidays which certainly was brilliant for him as it kickstarted his career. Others are not so lucky or motivated.

I was brought up to not buy something unless I had the money for it. The only acceptable loan was a mortgage. It's called poverty and never having anything spare so you saved up for things you wanted. Borrowing was for the rich or reckless.
I hate that my kids will be over £80,000 in debt when they graduate and that it will not really ever come down. Recent tweet by an ex Love islander saying her loan was £30,000 and is now over £40,000 even though she's paid some off every month for 3 years. The interest rate is stupid.
We just ignore it for now but it is v unfair when other students have rich mummies and daddies who can pay the fees so they have no loans. And therefore more take home pay each month. The rich just keep getting richer.

Yes,@TizerorFizz I am not British but a number of British friends who were first gen uni in the no fee or lower fee days say they would not have been allowed to pursue HE at the current fee levels. They and their DPs would have been scared off by the gross debt.

I believe that way of thinking still exists, and while I do not think the current system is optimal I do think it is manageable for most regardless of background - provided their health and dedication are robust enough that they will succeed on a reasonably pragmatic degree programme. (By no means do I rule out Humanities with that statement!)

But first generation student loans were 1% interest. I took out 3 to totally cover costs for three years (no bank of mum and dad). This was in the 90s. I'd paied them off in 15 years. So university was even more accessible then.

Well a Love Island contestant can probably pay it off! £30,000 initial loan is low. It’s always worth having an informed conversation about the loan if it’s going to be a worry.

We really do need better education about loans! They are NOT mortgages or bank loans, credit cards, payday loans, shop credit cards or Klarna. There is NO requirement to pay them off by a certain date. You might earn shed loads and decide to pay it off. DD has. Why even look at what you “owe”? You don’t. You owe the amount you pay every month. If you are a SAHM it’s £0. If you are part time it might be £0 too so the figure the statement says is meaningless. It’s the monthly sum that matters and most people haven’t found it an issue.

It was amazing that a largely non university educated population financed young people at university in the past. Self finance does have some issues but it’s underwritten by tax payers. Education about modern finance is vital and parents need to move on from previous thoughts on finance. DH is nearly 70 and I’m not much younger. We have managed money according to salaries and needs. Not the habits of our parents., Each generation moves on but clarity is vital to prevent poor information colouring decisions and health.

But having over £80,000 of debt/loan is not fair if others don't have it, just by virtue if being born to rich parents.
To have the careers they want mine have no choice but to get into this debt. Which they will have to pay back as an extra tax that others won't have. So poorer as working adults.
Unless we think 5 year degrees should only be for the rich once again. WP only goes so far - last year of medical school is hell for some trying to live on NHS bursary and minimal loan.

@Crocsandshocks
Any glance at university student stats will tell
you that student numbers have increased a lot. There were not more students in the 90s than now. The game changer was colleges of HE, polytechnics and others becoming universities in the early 90s. That increased opportunities which was certainly taken up. Student numbers in the last 30 years have almost doubled. So no one much is put off.
1 million to 2 million roughly.

When loans were 1% they were being heavily subsidised. The Bank of England interest rates for the latter part of 1990 was 13.88%. So 1% wasn’t not viable for the large number of students the universities were attracting. A golden era for students but not remotely realistic. These loans dating from 90/91 were for maintenance costs only. Not tuition. Tuition loans came in for the 98/99 academic year so your memoirs is a bit awry, You certainly could say that the people subsidizing students in 1990, now pay student “tax” after their degrees. That’s probably fair and has shifted responsibility to the degree holder with a certain of level of employment. However, again, explanations are needed to ensure everyone understands what their obligations are and are not!

Current SFE interest rate is 7%. Not sure how that has legally been allowed with the current base rate.

And I went to Uni when it was free. And we got grants. So yes I was subsidised by the tax payer. However I have paid more tax because of my degree and am pretty sure I've paid back more extra than my degree cost. So in the long run the revenue won.

I know someone who had a breakdown at Oxford[Masters]

Put me off seeing someone else apply to Oxford.

Maybe breakdowns are no higher there than national average. But the pressure has to be high for some.

Tuition loans came in for the 98/99 academic year so your memoirs is a bit awry,

Not at all. That would just have been for new starters. Not for me as part way through a course.

Also I don't agree that widening participation has been a wholly good thing. It's meant that a whole group of students much better suited at other things have struggled through academic courses that weren't right for them (and therefore at greater mental health risks arguably).

It's a joke when student fees are higher in the university of Berkshire than Berkley, California.

You seem to know a lot to be fair, @TizerorFizz so I'm not critiquing you at all. Do you work for the office for students? I'm an academic so I see the other side (students who can't understand the material, resitting whole years at a time and taking out finance after finance for something they will never excel in).

I hear Sunak now wants to go after non profitable university courses is if inherent education for its own sake doesn't exist. No doubt they will target the arts and humanities (but not nurses as he's happy for them to be poorly paid).

It doesn't need to be like this. Read Danny Dorlings book Finitopia. We have a lot to learn from Finland, especialy in terms of education and they social equality. Mental health for rich and poor is better when social inequality is minimised.

Wow. So poorer kids shouldn't be doctors or vets or engineers or architects ? Naughty WP making them think they can. Before anyone jumps on me, my own kids don't qualify but the ones I teach do. WP is not about lower grades, it's about giving aspiration and the cash to achieve them. WP gives extra bursaries and loans.
Let's go back to only those rich kids being allowed to follow their dreams. Know your place young serf.