Thoughts and experiences on Music degrees at Universities

[Aktea]

DD, awaiting GCSE results, is strongly considering a Music degree. There are a lot of choices and having looked at modules offered it would appear Uni's vary greatly in the kind of degree and experience you get. She is a better academic than performer and so we assume Uni a better choice than Conservatoire? She particularly enjoys composition. She doesn't really know what she wants to do afterwards.

This probably isn’t helpful but I can think of at least one London conservatoire where an Oxbridge first degree has been pretty much a given for UK based composition / performance postgrads. (So people from other universities can feel ‘second best’. Though of course this might pertain in any competitive profession!) But bear in mind such places are hugely international; only a small proportion of one’s fellow students might be from the UK.

I fear we are slightly in danger of disappearing down a Mumsnet style 'my child is exceptional' rabbit hole. I guess I am wondering about the prospects for the non-exceptional! DD is bright, hard-working, really enjoys playing with other people and relishes the variety of things music encompasses. However, she is not an exceptional player, cannot play 6 instruments, hasn't got a portfolio of chamber music she's composed and is very unlikely to be Oxbridge material (AAB/ABB asked for by many places should fingers crossed, be realistic).

@Aktea

Apologies if my post did come across in that way, not intended at all. Yes, my kids are clearly musical, but we had no idea if DS1 would get into conservatoire or not, and he had a plan B to do music at a normal red brick uni if he didn't get in. I'd also add that both my children have been educated at non selective state schools and have never attended junior conservatoire or similar.
I think the issue with music as a career is that there are far more places to study at University/Conservatoire than there are full time jobs, and the top jobs are massively competitive (with a lot of luck thrown in too) hence large numbers of musicians end up teaching or in non-musical jobs. As an example I know some absolutely superb young Opera singers both at Royal Welsh and RCM. Sadly they won't all end up as soloists with a major company.
I'm pretty sure my eldest will end up in his chosen career. My youngest was planning to do Chemistry at Uni but decided to follow his passion instead, and has done A level music in his gap year. I have discussed with him that his aim to do composition is high risk, and as a previous poster said he'll almost certainly have to do postgrad at a conservatoire if at the end of his degree he still wants to follow that route. If not, as a pp has said, an academic music degree is generally considered as good as any other arts/humanities degree.

As an aside the requirements for music at Oxford are 3A grades (not A*) including music A level, OR 3A grades in any subject plus grade 7 ABRSM theory. So if your daughter was interested in the Oxford route this might not be out of the question for her?

Grumpy, not at all, your experience is very welcome.

Yes, we've looked at grades for everywhere, including Oxbridge. With hard work and lots of luck she could achieve that certainly, but knowing how much work elder DS has to do at Oxford has completely put her off! More importantly, I don't think she would particularly enjoy the content and style - she would like the option of sound recording, music psychology etc, and the heavy essay load really doesn't appeal (we know you need to write essays wherever you go!). She is more Music with Science than Music with Arts in her A Levels.

Dd is currently at university doing a BMus, she is hoping to work in concert hall management/orchestra management as finds performing too stressful. To be honest to get into conservatoire you need to be exceptional as a performer so I doubt that is an option. My advice is to look at the modules but also get into a university with the best reputation they can manage as after all, it's a degree from a good university and that counts in most careers (many jobs don't care what the degree is in).

Ps if they don't already it's really helpful to get keyboard skills, those who don't play piano struggle a bit with some elements. Thankfully dd plays quite a few instruments including piano so composition for an ensemble is easier

Sheffield advertise themselves as having very flexible music course.

Dd lacked in extracurricular, was late to grading and lessons has only ever done voice exams. Exceptional performance isn't her thing. Happy to let you know about Southampton if she gets there, might be a small city, come back to me in three weeks time to check (bites nails).

The Southampton course looks really good with interesting modules - good luck to your DD.
Yes Sheffield do (at least on paper) have lots of choices, that and Leeds (who do an undergrad MArts in Music Pychology) are of interest.

Leeds do a joint Music with Music Psychology if that is of interest too. It is possible to do an undergraduate degree in composition at conservatoire without being a star performer - they assess you on your compositions in much the same way as they assess performers on their audition tapes. Guildhall offer composition for film which is highly regarded. Liverpool, Huddersfield and Goldsmiths are worth a look at for degrees with a composition bent.

Goldsmiths fared the worst on student satisfaction recently. I normally don't pany any attention to student satisfaction tables, but only 50% of students rated Goldsmiths. I know a couple of students who struggled there due to the location of their accommodation.

Ds1 has just finished a degree in music specialising in composition. He wants to be a composer although that may not be realistic! He actually did the Joint Course in Manchester. You do a 3 year degree in music at the University and what they call a Graduate Diploma at the Royal Northern College of Music which takes 4 years running concurrently. The RNCM diploma is taught alongside the other composition students, but joint course students miss out some parts of the degree course. This ticked all the boxes for Ds1 because he is quite academic and I think a degree in composition at a music college isn't very challenging academically and to be honest may not really be worth the money. Equally he struggled to find university courses that teach composition properly and even at Manchester which is one of the better music courses, his final year composition modules were taught by post-graduate and post-doc students and not by actual lecturers even though they have a couple of well-established composers at Manchester. The RNCM gave him 1h of 1:1 tuition in composition and a lot of opportunities to get his music performed which he didn't get at the university.

Having said all that it is quite competitive to get on the Joint Course and it's the only one in the country. It's also quite hard work for the first 3 years because you are almost doing 2 degrees and you need to be quite good at juggling your time. It's a good value course though because you only pay the same fees as for one normal course.

An alternative to this if your DD is interested in composition, but wants a more academic degree, is to go to a University city which also has a conservatoire and pay for private composition lessons with one of the composition tutors at the conservatoire whilst doing the Uni degree. I think it really helps to develop composition skills to have tuition just the same as you would with an instrument.

HTH!

Unless it's changed the application system for conservatoires runs separately to the one for Uni so you can apply to both at the same time actually giving you 10 choices overall and two first choices. I think the deadline for conservatoires is earlier than the Unis. The grades for getting into conservatoire are generally much lower than Uni so it could be good fallback option. Most conservatoire charge fees for the audition though, so she might not want to apply to 5, but could apply to 2 or 3. She would also have to apply for a specific discipline, presumably composition and have some compositions to show them. If you apply for the joint course and don't get an offer the RNCM will still consider you for the single degree.

DS graduated with a BMus (first) from Cardiff last year. His A level grades weren't technically good enough but he had two Grade 8 practical exams, a Grade 5 theory and a very relevant gap year before starting his course. He was never going to be a performer but did plenty of extracurricular performing and really enjoyed the academic study, particularly analysis.
He also planned to go into arts management or administration but the pandemic confirmed how precarious a way to make a living that can be.
Music is a well regarded degree and if your DC isn't sure what to do as a career, they should study something rigorous which they enjoy as they'll almost certainly need to do postgraduate or vocational/professional study later anyway.
DS has gone into business administration in the civil service, and his music is very much a hobby.

Music & sound recording at Surrey uni in Guildford?

That May all be true but how many of those composers have a degree in music? I would think long and hard about going to university purely to study something that interests you if you don’t have a specific career in mind that requires the degree. There was a really interesting programme on radio 4 about this recently. They interviewed a number of university graduates and asked if they would do the same degree if they had their time again. The only ones who said yes were those who did quote vocational subjects like law. Several had done degrees such as events management and found themselves in events management jobs working alongside colleagues being paid the same amount who didn’t have a degree in events management.

It’s a hell of a lot of debt to get into just so you can spend a few more years doing something that you enjoy, especially if you don’t have a plan for how you’re going to repay that debt at the end of it.

My son did a music degree at Salford that involves recording and composing as well. He then went to the NFTS and studied an MA in composing for film and TV. He now does that for a living. All of his friends on his degree course now work in music in some way or other. What was so great about Salford was that has introduced lots of different ways of making a living with music. When he started there he wanted to be a performer and he's really glad that they showed him other options.

So, to be clear, he spent tens of thousands of pounds and ended up in a job that doesn’t require a degree?

I also don’t agree that music is a particularly well regarded degree. It’s not considered very academic.

I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but the years-old policy of encouraging all kids to go to university, regardless of what they study, hasn’t done anyone any favours.

I wonder if the OPs son has looked into doing a degree apprenticeship instead.

I would disagree that music isn't an academic degree if done at university as opposed to conservatoire. Ds1's music degree at Manchester involved a lot of reading, essay writing and a dissertation and actually students who had not done that kind of A level such as history or English, tended to find it quite hard.

Why does everyone always throw out 'degree apprenticeships' if they consider another poster's child not academic enough (in Mumsnet terms). Have you actually seen how competitive degree level apprenticeships are @OperaStation ? They are few and far between.

I'm not even going to go there with the boring old 'you can't do a degree unless you are superbright or it leads to a vairy well paid job in London' shite.

@gogohmm thats good to hear….. good orchestral managers can be hard to find!

there are loads of roles available in the orchestra world,and lots for graduates who are starting out too.

Why does everyone always throw out 'degree apprenticeships' if they consider another poster's child not academic enough (in Mumsnet terms). Have you actually seen how competitive degree level apprenticeships are @OperaStation ? They are few and far between.

I agree.

My DD also had this dilemma at a similar age as she is also very academic. She is now at a top conservatoire in London on a scholarship and loving it- but- it is extremely hard work and the training is very tough both physically and mentally. She has to practice her instrument between 5-6 hours a day and there is no let up. It's very competitive, both to get in and also once you are there. You have to really love your instrument! I have studied music at university for my degree and post grad. Conservatoires are in a different league.

Good luck to your DD OP. Whatever route she chooses I am sure she will have a wonderful time!

Inveterate name changing OP here.
What kind of degree apprenticeship would DD (not son) do anyway? She wants to do further academic study.
Not sure how a degree from Birmingham, Manchester etc could be considered non-academic and a waste of time.
All thoughts welcome though.
Emergency and ChoirMum, those are interesting experiences - thank you.
Saker - have seen that Manchester course and rather assumed DD would not be stellar enough performance wise to get on that, it looks amazing.
She has thoughts of doing a joint degree with Maths or even possibly a Language for more flexibility (and because she enjoys them), but is aware that this would restrict module choice and that you can fall between two stools as it were.

Also I would really recommend thoroughly researching if university music courses are still running. Many music courses at universities are being drastically cut- this is currently happening at my university.