Paid Apprenticeships with degree

[Maggiethecat]

Dd2, year 10, has been telling me about paid apprenticeships and being very money driven would like to explore this path.

I'm not sure how serious she is as she doesn't even really know what she wants to do afterwards but she is very academic (social sciences leaning) and likely to get offers from very good unis.

I think that route is probably good for people who know what they want to do and getting paid experience and a degree at the end sounds appealing.

Does anyone have any experience of apprenticeships and which field?

The major advantage to a degree apprenticeship is obtaining a degree while not not accumulating significant student debts.

However, it makes more sense for the OP's DD to go the university route especially as she can do so without incurring student debt. The OP lives in Scotland and her DD will be able to go to university in Scotland without having to pay exorbitant fees. It will be perfectly possible to work part-time or during the summer to cover other costs and not graduate with a student loan

@Lucyccfc68
So you never ever take MEng grads from the best universities such as Sheffield or Bristol then? That’s extremely worrying as many of those young people studying Civil and Structural Engineering are very bright and hugely trainable after their degrees. Which, in case you didn’t know, are 4 years. The best grads with MEng would expect to be Chartered after a few years with a decent employer. It’s interesting you think the three year degree is worthless. I think lots of MN parents would be aghast to read that. As indeed would nearly everyone running HE engineering courses at our top research universities. The UK so often is prepared to close down routes for young people because they don’t see the value of an academic education as complementary to other skills. Very sad.

It's possible to do a social work degree apprenticeship - might be a fit for the Soc Sci interests? Your daughter would, however, need an employer to support her on to this route. It's extremely unlikely she would secure this type of employment / support for the apprenticeship immediately on leaving school though.

@Lucyccfc68
I would like to know what Chartered Engineers they become at 25. After 7 years.

@Lucyccfc68
I attach info from ICE regarding apprenticeships and applications for Incorporated Engineer status after EPA. I assume you know this is not CEng status. When can apprentices get CEng status?

No, the 3 year degree isn’t worthless, but that’s all they have compared to our apprentices.

Our apprentices do the same degree over 5 years, whilst gaining 5 years experience and we support them to become chartered at the end.

Lots of companies still offer engineering grad roles, but we chose the apprenticeship route.

Our apprentices get the best of both worlds - first class honours degree, work experience, earning a wage, no debt and support to become chartered.

For me, the huge shame, is parents who think the only route is still going to a red brick Uni.

The parents I speak to, absolutely love the fact that their youngsters have a real and viable alternative to just doing a degree at Uni.

I don’t need to be taught how to do my job, but thanks anyway.

Our apprentices will do the ICE, but as we do structural engineering, we support them to gain their Chartership with the Istructe.

Our QS apprentices also go for Chartership with RICS, although most would choose not to, as RICS need a serious and modern overhaul.

I’m not sure what you don’t understand about apprenticeships, but as they have 5 more years of work experience that a new graduate, they can actually go for Chartership sooner, due to their academic degree plus work experience.

As with the choice to do a full time degree, Chartership is also a choice. I have ex-apprentices who chose not to go for Chartership and are now Engineering Managers earning in excess of £120k.

My apprentices are delighted that they have choices now and a real alternative to the traditional full time degree.

@TizerorFizz for me an interesting question, that my apprentices would ask you - what would be the benefit to me not choosing an apprenticeship and going to Uni full time to do a degree?

It’s well understood that MEng is the quickest route to CEng. DH is FIStructE and FICE. It’s quicker usually do do MEng and not BEng for those qualifications. As you can see, after 7 years, apprentices can be Incorporated Engineers, not Chartered Engineers. So how much longer for your engineers to be Chartered? Not sure I got an answer. It is likely to take longer than a MEng grad because the work to get CEng and the necessary high level design work will take longer than MEng grad who join companies after 4 years. They could be chartered after 7 years not Incorporated. That means they earn more money more quickly.

I am sure you know your business but Consultant Engineers might take a different view and not dismiss MEng qualified engineers from our top universities. They are fast track in most consultancies. That’s why no talented young person should ever dismiss an MEng degree. It’s still fast track in consultancies offering a wide variety of work. Yes, DH was founding partner of a consultancy employing over 100 engineers of all levels. Design and build is not the same. I assume with QSs that’s what you are.

All good employers give support to grad engineers to become Chartered. Your advertising is great but you don’t understand the whole picture. I’m glad to say DH earned well in excess of £120,000. It’s an interesting concept that managing pays more than getting a professional qualification. No wonder we don’t have enough engineers. Also you need Chartered status to sign off structural designs. Can you imagine Ove Arup with senior engineers who are not Chartered? They wouldn’t have a business.

We currently have 6 apprentices in our company.
I don't consider them to be at 'low level' universities (Leeds/Manchester/ Newcastle).

Apprentices don't get the dregs of courses.

I’m not remotely saying they do! That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying it’s not a black and white decision. You won’t offer MEng courses I suspect. It’s well known this is a much slower route to being a Chartered Engineer. Therefore young people should have all the facts. Not just sales pitches involving no fees. That’s part of the argument but for many DC won’t compete with MEng courses at top universities. If you offer MEng then that’s different. Most apprenticeships don’t and so there is a difference which young people need to understand.

@TizerorFizz
You clearly are an advocate of the route your husband took. There are, however, many more routes now and it is good youngsters are researching for themselves instead of just applying to uni because everyone else is. Not all youngsters can afford the uni experience especially with the cost of everything now. I am grateful I am not having to pay two lots of energy bills at the moment. Not all decisions can be based on the speed of increasing salary either, graduates still have to get a job first which I assume would be in a competitive field against all the other grads, apprentices usually are offered a permanent job after training.
I don’t know anything about chartered engineers, but reading through many of the posts here, degree apprenticeships still sound an amazing opportunity in many different fields of work!

As DH is pretty ancient @FoxandFeathers I’m not saying what he did is best but our top class engineering MEng degrees need the best young people too. Think of a chartered engineer as being the same as a hospital consultant. It’s the top professional qualification for engineers. Therefore young people need to understand the difference between Incorporated and Chartered Engineers. It’s a bit like junior doctors vs consultants. We tend to know what that difference is but we use the term engineer with no thought to professional recognition. Most engineers still go through the full time university system by the way. They are not going to be sidelined. Why wouldn’t you study engineering at Imperial if you could? Lifetime earning for their grads are likely to be more. Also MEng degrees give many strings to your bow. You’ve studied for longer and usually 9-5 pm every day. Work in the holidays helps too. Yes, at 22 they are not the finished product but they can progress very quickly and it’s plain wrong to say young people should ditch MEng and always go for an apprenticeship.

DS is doing a degree apprenticeship in Pharmaceutical Sciences.
The company take on several apprentices a year, but ds was working there already when they offered him the apprenticeship. He is also mentoring the degree apprentices straight out of school.

I really would not waste time arguing points with TizerorFizz. She is not an engineer and clearly does not know what she is talking about.

Eh? She's very knowledgeable as it goes. But you're entitled to your opinion.

Agree Jocelynburnell

Parents just need to be careful it is not a poisoned chalice - this apprenticeship route and have a look at the broader picture but let the teenager decide. Eg it may be life changing to live away from home at a traditional university in terms of friendsm ade for life, independence, having 3 years to decide exactly what career, hobbies etc. Pros and cons to both approaches. I favour the traditional university route.

@xenia My dc moved away to do his apprenticeship. In fact, the majority of the new apprentices were not locals.

Good point Riverlee.

I'm in the final year of a PhD researching Graduate Apprenticeships so I eat, sleep and breathe this topic!

I'm really interested in the real world value of the apprenticeship vs a traditional degree but because the scheme/funding levy is so recent, it will be a few years before we have any meaningful data on that front.

However, as far as the actual experience of apprentices I've spoken to goes, as well as anecdotal evidence about the skills gained, promotions achieved, etc, it's a great route. Taking fees out of the equation as that doesn't apply to Scottish degrees, the key benefit is that apprentices graduate with a degree plus four years of work experience, which you don't get by going to uni full-time. Plus, there is so much feedback out there about how universities don't create "workplace-ready" graduates, so the apprenticeship also develops the soft skills that uni doesn't.

It's not a perfect option and there are pros and cons but, overall, I'm a massive advocate for apprenticeships.

I'm really interested in the real world value of the apprenticeship vs a traditional degree but because the scheme/funding levy is so recent, it will be a few years before we have any meaningful data on that front

Good point. It's entirely possible that @Lucyccfc68 hasn't yet had any apprentices finish, yet alone be able to compare their route to chartership (if there is such a route) to traditional MEng grads.

Degree apprenticeships have been around for at least 10 years. The degree is the exact same modules as the full time degree plus real life work experience.

I have a number of apprentices who have finished and some have chosen to complete their Chartership. It’s not for everyone and it’s not a pre-requisite or a requirement to becoming an excellent engineer. We have also paid for some our apprentices to complete their Masters - this again is a choice.

Our company is not big enough to get real quality data in terms of comparisons between apprentices and grads, but I can just go off conversations with those people and our managers who have been with the company a long time. Every grad I have asked has said they wished apprenticeships had been an option for them.

I love that our young people have choices now and companies do too. I regularly go to events where large companies talk about their experiences of apprenticeships such as Jacobs, Arups and the tier one contractors. They all still take on a mix of graduates and apprentices. A lot have reduced their grad in take in favour of apprentices.

The bottom line is that the traditional route of B.Eng or M.Eng from a Russell Group Uni and then Chartership is not the only route to a successful career in engineering. A very one dimensional view.

I’m not researching Degree Apprenticeships though, I’m researching Graduate Apprenticeships; GAs are Scottish and the first programmes were only launched in 2017. Scottish degrees are four years long so there are limited numbers of cohorts who have graduated and many, many new programmes are only in their first or second years now.

(You didn’t quote me but half of that post is quoting mine)