Core Maths or EPQ? What is more valuable?

[CornishGem1975]

DD is in Year 11 and we're currently debating Core Maths but she has the option to do an EPQ. I'm assuming workload and time mean both aren't an option so just mulling over - what is the more valuable qualification in terms of university applications?

She's taking science-based A levels so my feeling is that Core Maths would be beneficial. I've seen some unis have alternative offers to include Core Maths but some only offer for EPQs. Whole thing is a minefield so any advice is welcome!

For university applications in general, the EPQ. My experience of Core Maths is that take up has been very low and I think there is the possibility of the qualification being dropped at some point in the not too distance future; whereas EPQs have been around quite a while and university admissions know and value them.

That said, the Core Maths content is quite practical and will complement science A Levels, particularly for someone lacking confidence in maths. Also, even if not necessary for the science A Levels, if your DD is intending to pursue a science-based degree then they will really benefit from keeping the maths going - although personally I would always suggest students wanting to take science degrees have maths A Level in the first place, because it can be overwhelming at degree level without a strong maths background.

What exactly is the epq?

If your dad is doing science subjects but not maths I think core maths would be more valuable.

In terms of UCAS points, Core Maths is worth 20 points and an EPQ is 28 (an A star A-level is worth 56).

Given she's doing all science A-levels, I think I would be leaning towards Core Maths? But it really depends where she is applying because some unis (Bath is one I can think of) do give reduced offers for an EPQ at Grade A or A star.

Hi, OP -

I am a former Russell Group STEM Admissions Tutor. @shefellinthemarsh is right to consider the UCAS tariff points, but beyond that I think this is a subtle question. I have written you pretty good answers both ways!

Your best advice will come from the Admissions Tutors of the particular Schools your DD is interested in applying to. (Of course there is nothing binding about the choices she makes now.) I suggest she contact the Admissions Teams at five Schools that seem fairly attractive to her and explain her situation. Hopefully four of them will answer the same way, and she can proceed with confidence. People tend to think of the Admissions Team as a barrier, but we like to help!

If she is doing e.g. 3x Science A-levels, then I think the value of Core Maths depends on how many of her particular Physics class are doing A-level Maths or even Further Maths.

If she is at a school where there are several Physics A-level groups, and there is a specific one for those NOT doing A-level maths, that is fine. However, there is such synergy between Maths and Physics A-levels that if the majority of her A-level group is doing Maths A-level, the Core Maths will at least start to fill that gap.

Equally, you do not say what she is thinking of studying at university. DD did an EPQ because her chosen degree is not a school subject, and so by doing an EPQ relevant to the degree area she was getting a 'head start' and exploring whether that subject really was for her. DS did not, because his degree subject is much more closely related to a school subject and in his case his many hours of an extracurricular activity that couldn't be 'shoehorned into' the EPQ framework were more valuable.

DD's EPQ was probably the difference between her getting her first choice uni vs her 2nd - not on UCAS points, but because it showed her as a particular type of candidate. Had DS completed the EPQ he started on - everyone at his sixth form started ne - it would have made no difference to his destination, again UCAS points or not.

(Ultimately, what will give a young person a university place is, in the vast majority of cases, their core A-level grades.

Core Maths may make a difference to the grade they get in Physics.

EPQ may, in some cases for some universities, lower the required grades slightly, but the time it takes may also reduce your child's grades in the other A-levels. )

I would say Core Maths. My DD has just done it over 2 years (some school do it over 1 year so worth checking). She was going to do an EPQ too but it did get too much so dropped it over the summer and did some MOOCS instead.
She is taking A level Biology, Psychology and PE and did find the Core Maths useful for both Biology and Psychology. She was lucky in that there was a low take up at school (about 4 and 3 dropped out so for Yr13 she was 1 to 1 with the Maths teacher).

Re uni offers. From the list of unis DD considered before applying, the same ones that offered lower grades for CM also did for EPQ and vice versa. She received offers from Nottingham, York, Sheffield, Loughborough and Sheffield Hallam and it was only Sheffield that mentioned lower offer with CM in their offer although York would have done if she hadn't qualified for a contextual offer anyway due to our postcode.

DD found it easy to do CM in her timetable (especially as it was over 2 years) as there was so much free time, but that again will depend on the school I guess and if they fill the free time with PE or extra stuff alongside the A levels.

It is generally recommended not to do Physics AL without Maths, so I had assumed your DD was not doing this. If she is, that is important for her to explain in the query I have suggested. Best wishes.

Sorry, being old I had read ‘science based A levels’ as the classic ‘3 Sciences’ combo, whereas of course a much wider range of more loosely ‘science based’ A levels are now available.

EPQ develops other skills important for university such as independent learning, research, organisation, presentation skills, time management, referencing etc. So in the long term EPQ is more beneficial. EPQ is hard which is why a lot of universities look at it positively when making offers.

Core maths is designed as a qualification exactly for students like your DD who are taking sciencey A-levels but not A-level maths. Universities were concerned about students progressing to science/social science degrees which have a reasonably high maths content, who haven't studied maths since they were 16. They were having to put on remedial maths classes for them to cope.

Core maths is the sort of maths that is useful for those subjects. So in terms of which option will be most helpful in her studies, and not just in UCAS, Core maths wins. (Not sure about the poster upthread saying it was going to be binned, my school has a very healthy take-up).

royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/Publications/2022/2022-01-26-core-maths-joint-statement.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=2DF343B9B767D46BA2A2FEB1B34C620B

Thanks all for the insights. Really useful.

A level choices are currently Biology, Chemistry and Psychology, so gut instinct does say that Core Maths would be useful alongside these.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of advice from school on any of this - it's like the blind leading the blind!

I think it may depend on what sort of area of study she is thinking of for uni. An EPQ can be very useful for showing interest in areas not studied at A level, or for linking an A level to an are of future study. Can be included in the personal statement and discussed at interview if one is required.

Not entirely sure yet @Seeline it will likely be Psychology, or Biology, Biochemistry...

My DD did the bulk of her EPQ in the summer holidays between LVI and UVI, so it didn't affect her other subjects.

More places offer grade reduction for EPQ than for Core maths. Core maths is valuable if she might be applying to US colleges where she would have to sit SATs. This would be really difficult without either Alevel maths or core maths.

DS1 did both in Year 12 and it was too much alongside three content heavy Alevels

RE your comment there doesn't seem a lot of advice from school - my school didn't even mention they did it - it was thanks to @noblegiraffes comment how useful it was that I asked them when DD was in Yr 11 and said if they didn't run it then DD would have to leave to go elsewhere for 6th form. They decided to continue to run it and originally put all the students who were doing A Level Psychology but not A level Maths on the course but they all dropped out pretty early on and by Yr13 DD was the only 1 on it.

I've just asked DD if she had her time again would she do EPQ or CM - definitely CM - she found EPQ took far too much time and effort (and she really enjoyed what she did do) she found CM easy to fit in and was useful. And it did reduce a few offers (although not for the uni she picked in the end) but it still could come in useful if she doesn't get the grades she needs...

So thanks to @noblegiraffe advice (I have missed it as now mostly only on Yr13 thread).

@NCTDN the EPQ is the Extended Project Qualification. As other posters have stated, it is an independent level 3 project and carries the UCAS points of half an A level.

If the OP's daughter was taking Physics, core Maths would possibly be more useful. However, if the DD is interested in a niche area, an EPQ would help her to stand out. Lots of my EPQ group are taking Biology, Chemistry and Psychology and don't seem to have any issue with their Maths skills.

Very interesting question as my DS did both. Time was a huge constraint in the the end and he dropped the EPQ. I'm very surprised at some of the comments about Core Maths and the possibility of it being dropped. Not the case at all! completely agree with @noblegiraffe .

Core Maths is designed for students exactly like OP's DD, students who are not doing A'Level Maths (equivalent to half and A'Level) but within social sciences. DS has learned so much from his Core maths over the last year and is glad he didn't stop doing Maths after GCSEs. The content covers so not only needed at uni & for your chosen industry but in every day use. According to the (Advanced Mathematics Support Programme (AMSP) government-funded initiative), there were over 12,000 entries in 2021, and constantly growing.

It is still a newish qualification so of course, it is still gathering momentum. Some universities are already aware of it and give a lower offer for it e.g Bath university. Some schools already mandate ALL students not doing A'Level Maths to do Core maths.
The EPQ on the other hand has been around for much longer so of course, more universities offer concessions for it. The benefit of it is that you get to study an area of specific interest in more depth. There are claims that it prepares students better for uni. Personally, unless I see data showing that the outcomes of students who did an EPQ are better than those who didn't, I'd say that's all very subjective and a lot of work & time spent!

I also feel the benefit of the EPQ doesn't go far beyond entry to uni, whereas the Core Maths qualification and its benefits go beyond university.

Why is she doing the EPQ? is it to get a reduced offer or is it to just enjoy studying a new area? if it's for a reduced offer then she might consider perhaps if she weren't doing the EPQ she might just get the grades she needs anyway. If it's for the pure enjoyment and research skills then fair enough, but which one would benefit her career most?

if it's for a reduced offer then she might consider perhaps if she weren't doing the EPQ she might just get the grades she needs anyway.

This. The EPQ takes up crazy amounts of time. It certainly has the potential to create a situation where A Level grades suffer as a result of not having had the time to dedicate to them.

My DD1 did and epq because she did maths and two sciences but was also good at writing essays, so wanted to be able to show off extended writing skills beyond GCSE level. She was very interested in the topic she chose which related well to what she was applying for at degree level. It gave her something else to write about in her personal statement. She thinks the research and referencing skills helped getting settled in to uni style work.

DD2 is going to do core maths when she starts 6th form. Her style of learning is very different so she's doing a btec. It might not add anything to job prospects or uni applications but in terms of what she will learn, I think it is useful for life to continue some maths study beyond GCSE.

At my daughters school Core Maths is mandatory for Chemistry, Biology, Physics, Psychology and Geography if A-level Maths isn't being taken.

EPQ, core maths is great but it's aimed at keeping students data literate whatever curriculum pathway they're on - it's not a add on for science a levels

My dd has just done epq alongside 2 of the same subjects that are mentioned, 6th form doesn’t mention core maths.

she ultimately wants to study history, hef 3rd A level and done it alongside a feminist principle area of history , which is of interest to her.

it involved independent research and presentation skills which can be future skill.