High grade students being rejected. Is this fair?

[mids2019]

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jun/11/first-post-covid-school-leavers-face-fight-for-fewer-university-places

Is.this situation going to continue if we don't have grade deflation. Are more universities going to be forced to interview or to require supplementary exams?

No. He got an A-star in maths and is predicted one in further maths. He is taking three A levels at one sitting.

It is fair because they can’t take every applicant who achieves the grades, there just aren’t enough spaces. This year’s cohort also have to compete with students who deferred last year and have their (teacher assessed so higher than usual) grades in hand. It’s just a case of supply and demand.

I'm confused about all the stars but sadly it seems he's missed the requirements by one A star? It's all so stupid at this level as he could easily end up getting the star. And he's 17, still got a lot more potential. I am a lot cleverer now than I was when I was 17! Poor kids.

What happens to all the kids predicted BBB or BBC or whatever, do they just apply to non RG?

But still he's up against people who will get 4 A stars in one sitting. I'm not saying it's right but that's why he's being rejected, he's up against stronger candidates.

And yes, supplemental exams, like BMAT/UKCAT will need the way forward to differentiate due to universal high grades

I would guess his school structures M/FM so they do M in year 12 and FM year 13 - so the fact that one appears to be taken early is meaningless. It's quite common and does not disadvantage kids.

This happens every year though and is why kids should be sensible when they make their applications. Which this kid apparently seemed to be because he does have an offer for his subject at a RG uni.

The actual problem is that he's changed his mind.

But I suppose 'High flying 18 year old with place at Russell Gp uni changes mind' isn't such a great headline...

This is simply not true. It’s a fairly common approach to teaching Maths and Further Maths. The whole Maths syllabus is taught in Year 12 and the exam taken at end of that year. Then the Further Maths in taught in Year 13 and examined then. A decision to teach this way rather than do the two in parallel is made by the school or college and certainly doesn’t mean the student ‘cannot cope’.

My DD is in this same situation and is doing her Maths A level at the moment (Year 12) and I do not expect this to disadvantage her in any way. Also confirmed at a recent Oxford Maths open day.

As upthread, everyone that applies to Oxford Warwick and Imperial for Maths or CS will have 3 or 4 A* predictions. That's why these universities have Admissions Tests, to try and separate candidates. The Guardian has not reported the results of the students Admissions Test which are usually taken in the October of applying for Oxford Imperial and Warwick with results in the January. And Bath is a hugely popular insurance choice for students that don't make Oxford or Imperial and they can afford to be picky.
I agree, things are more challenging for both students and universities this year but the point is we can't know for sure in this case.

Sounds really tough

Ds is doing same subjects as those listed, just said you’d better do some study

He seems to have grades required in mind for Imperial but sounds even more competitive than that requirement

Nothing new. Had the same discussion with my head of sixth 25 years ago. One wonderful girl in the year below was rejected across the board despite being a top student.

Ds is doing Maths, further Maths, Physics and Chemistry all this summer. I cannot understand the advantage of doing maths in year 12. He is fairly comfident he got 100% in the papers he has sat so far in Maths he wouldn't have done that a year ago !

Other unis can interview too - nothing is stopping them.

Indeed, some universities and courses already interview (medical schools are an example). I was interviewed for my university place (non-oxbridge, non-medical school) many years ago.

Majority of applicants do do all 4 at once, doing Maths A level may happen in less 12 but is far less common

All Universities should interview students or set additional entrance exams in order to differentiate between students. Many students have top grades (4 A stars predicted), so Universities need more information to chitter most suitable candidates!

It’s a fairly common approach to teaching Maths and Further Maths. The whole Maths syllabus is taught in Year 12 and the exam taken at end of that year. Then the Further Maths in taught in Year 13

At our school Maths is indeed taught in year 12 and Further Maths in year 13, but both exams are taken at the end of year 13. Our school strongly recommend taking them ALL at once.

True they haven’t mentioned other assessment

Also has he done his exams at different times - that often looks bad as it seems like you cannot cope with doing them all in the same year may be?

Yes, this is why schools recommend taking Maths and Further Maths at the end of year 13.

Regardless of how they are taught between years 12 and 13.

As at DS's school.

I know a number of impressive candidates with A star predictions that didn't get expected offers from their universities this year. It's been brutal, particularly for medicine, Oxbridge, Durham, Warwick and Imperial.

What I'm trying to say is that it's reflective of volume of applications against number of places (particularly with deferrals). As sad as it is for the boy in question, it's not a searing injustice but the same situation that all the other applicants are facing.

Many universities don't include a previous gotten A level, sat early, in their offers, especially when faced with lots of students with similar predicted grades. Lots of universities will place offers based on the results of the exams sat all in one go. Some, if the competition is less perhaps, may reduce offers if the student already has one or more results already.

A much fairer system would be to allocate points rather than grades. There can be up to 10 marks between grades, so 89 and 79 are both As for example. I'm really against using more interviews as it just disadvantages disadvantaged students even further.

Are more universities going to be forced to interview or to require supplementary exams?

Yes.

That would be a great help to find the most suitable candidates. So many students get 4 A star predictions nowadays!

Interviews and assessments are a much better indicator of passion and talent for a subject than school subject grades.

It’s a fairly common approach to teaching Maths and Further Maths. The whole Maths syllabus is taught in Year 12 and the exam taken at end of that year. Then the Further Maths in taught in Year 13

Lots of schools have stopped doing this due to the issues it can cause when applying to university, especially for highly competitive courses/institutions.

My sister had the same issue some 20 odd years ago, DD's friends had the same issue just 3 years ago.

There’s something wrong with an educational system that has mothers behaving like a crowd of starlings squabbling over breadcrumbs.

I am reminded of the situation in South Korea or China, where children vie for a limited number of places in prestigious universities. The atmosphere of frenetic competitiveness surrounding all-or-nothing final exams is overwhelming. Some of the parents, particularly the mothers, make a profession out of getting their offspring into the ‘best’ schools. Their thoughts are consumed by this dream.

It’s not good for anyone’s mental health and it misses the point of what education should actually be about. I would far rather see a flatter hierarchy of universities and more of an emphasis on children being quietly and without fanfare signed off on competencies at school rather than so much riding on exam performance over a few highly stressful days. Let them be competitive in other ways if they wish.

Not enough decent courses to go round? The solution to that is investment and being non-elitist about alternative paths - not pitting children against each other. Nobody goes to Asda expecting to fight for a pack of profiteroles. Why do we put up with this sort of thing in the educational sphere?

I don’t get the fuss over some of these unis, it’s Uni snobbery. Employers don’t care where you went, experience matters more. Why aren’t kids applying to a realistic range of unis instead of just the perceived top 4 that many employers won’t be that bothered about?