Reapply to Cambridge?

[Mollymalone225]

What are your thoughts on reapplying to Cambridge? DC was pooled and rejected for Natsci (physics) this year. Was predicted 4 A*s, had gold in physics and chemistry olympiads that was mentioned in personal statement. Since then has grown to like maths/physics a bit more than chemistry.

DC has an offer from UCL (natsci) to start 2022 and if reapplying only wants the following 5 (in order of preference)
Cambridge (natsci again- doesn't like Cambridge engineering course),
Imperial (2 courses in engineering- civil and mechanical)
UCL (natsci/physics and engineering).

He only wants to consider Cambridge, Imperial or UCL and I'm really worried that second time round he will get no offers from these places even if he ends up securing 4A*s. Why? Cambridge favours state school applicants and DC goes to selective private school. Imperial/UCL are incredibly competitive and nothing is a guarantee- especially if one takes a gap year, real passion needs to be shown. Given DC is so unsure about physics/natsci/engineering and wants to apply for different courses at each of the universities, I'm not sure a single personal statement can deliver passion for all this. So his statement will probably be natsci-oriented with a splash of engineering related work experience if he secures it. Gap year opportunities in relevant areas are so competitive and rare.

I'm so scared he'll end up with no offers - is it better to take the UCL offer and move on? So worried. Thoughts, advice much welcome. (of course, reapplying only applicable if he ends up getting at least 3 A*s in further maths, maths, chemistry and physics)

Just looking at Magdalene College, which guarantees accommodation for the duration of the degree (so no costly years out in private rented):

Weekly rents £134 - £195 (30 weeks of the year), so annual cost of £4050 - £5850.

Lunch and dinner available in the cafeteria for an average of £6 per meal. You can also get a formal 3 course waiter service meal for £8.50 - available pretty much every night.

Compare the cost to say Birmingham or Leeds and it’s pretty good value.

He's a twit. Its not exactly unusual for pooled students from any background not to not get an offer, they don't 'sink without trace' - they choose from their 4 ucas slots of other excellent unis. That's how the system works for them all.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Abulafia

Re the Times article, surprise surprise, he is a St Paul’s alumni… these journalists!

But IME the majority of undergraduates return home for the c28 weeks rather than renting in the relevant city.

IME you can’t get out of paying rent over holidays in uni towns and cities. In my day you generally nabbed your accommodation around Easter and started paying half rent over the summer vac, and then full rent until the end of the 12 month contract. In DC’s uni city you pay full rent the entire time (and at £400 - £500 per month plus bills it really wasn’t cheap).

I guess we should ask the question - how many Oxbridge interviewing dons who tend to have the final say were privately educated, which schools did they go to, where did they study?
David Abulafia, case in point. The Times journalist should have pointed this out, for transparency.

@TheAbbotOfUnreason I don't have recent figures but I think a family member was asked to guarantee c£10,000 annually in a provincial city for accommodation without food for their DC and not for a full calendar year. Anecdata but if someone returns home during vacations, I heard a couple of undergraduates say they were paying less than half the costs of their school friends who've not gone to Cambridge. PPs will have a much better idea than me. A slight derail but I thought it might be helpful to post where a PP suggested a link between city and College rents which might add to the discouragement of a parent of a child with no history and no school support.

@TheAbbotOfUnreason my poor writing but generally not for Cambridge which charge rents for terms and IME those rents are cheaper as well as for shorter periods. They often rent the rooms for conferences outside term time or for commercial language schools from overseas. That was in reply to the PP who mentioned not being able to work at Cambridge in term time so i was trying to make the point that in general Cambridge terms are shorter and College rents are cheaper hence not to discourage disadvantaged people from applying.

@Zilla1 My point also was that Cambridge accommodation fees are very reasonable compared to other UK towns and cities.

Leeds self-catered accommodation for 39 weeks is generally £4.5 - £8k per year. And you wouldn’t be guaranteed accommodation for the duration of your degree, so you’d be pushed into private with longer rental periods - so students returning home for vacations are still paying rent in their uni house / flat.

The problem in this country is too many small time individual landlords who indeed, sometimes do need to sell, get worried about paying their own mortgage etc., can’t afford essential repairs.
We need professional large scale landlords who run efficiently, repair efficiently, not allowed to raise rents too much etc and are happy to just get paid, no need to sell etc.
So the buy to let everyone has been aspiring to get for their pension, not great. Government has already gone some way to discouraging this with no deductibility of mortgage interest, extra 3 per cent stamp duty. I would like to see penal capital gains tax too going forward for second homes/rentals etc.
Of course, with final salary pension schemes gone and an ever rising property market coupled with very low interest rates, people were still incentivised to invest in buy to lets, despite the current disincentives.

oops wrong thread, sorry.

I know @TheAbbotOfUnreason was just replying to your reply about the 28 weeks but suspect we're agreeing wildly. It's odd that Cambridge is financially favourable during the time there which should encourage the disadvantaged. I think much of the Ivy league is the same, with financially-favourable terms for applicants from families with relatively high incomes compared with other US universities.

I find the way some other UK universities have commercialised their accommodation to exploit students quite sad though I suppose it's part and parcel of the government's commercialisation of the education market. Vice Chancellor's/Chief Executives? of universities six figure salaries don't accrue themselves.

I also find it sad how the career structure in universities has evolved. The repeated short term contracts/casualisation of post-doc's roles seems perverse when workers need to have mortgages unless they have a DP with a good job or private wealth. Still a good element for the business model for the VCs pyramid perhaps?

Love how in that article the Eton teachers are "puzzled" and the state schools are "ambitious" and "target" O+C.
How unfair for state school students to be ambitious and try for Oxbridge. Honestly, what a bloody nerve. Thoughts and prayers for all the puzzled Etonians out there.

Well that sounds like a clearly un-level playing field, with the state targeting poor old Oxbridge and encouraging the wrong sort to 'try'. Confusing the poor old Etonians. Where will all the PPE students come from to stand for the Union and then run the country? We might end with no PM in twenty years if a clear meritocracy isn't maintained.

Something should be done to address this clear unfairness. When Eton was founded, wasn't it for the disadvantaged? If so, they should be given allowances.

There is a fundamental paradox here though too.
Eton = has taken lots more bursary students recently and become a lot more academically selective. Despite this, Oxbridge places dive.

Oxbridge= just as privileged/historic etc as Eton, finally being a “bit” fairer towards disadvanted kids (despite the international intake because they too need money…)

City of London/law firms = not taking as many Oxbridge anymore as also trying to be PC etc…

And Eton are setting up three selective state sixth forms in deprived towns.
So that should help their Oxbridge numbers bright kids in those areas.

@Bovrilly be interested what heroic use the word 'setting up' might be making in the press announcements too. Heard a lot of the Eton Harrrow Westminster Winchester? heads back in the day talk about satellites and partnerships with state schools/academies that perhaps turned not to have much substance.

@Zilla1 -Westminster worked with Harris to create this selective sixth form

www.harriswestminstersixthform.org.uk/

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/mar/21/headteacher-defends-plan-for-free-etons-of-the-north-sixth-forms

“Pupils at the new “Etons of the north” will be selected based on GCSE results and their background. Priority will be given to those eligible for free school meals, looked-after children, those from the most deprived postcodes and those who would be the first in their family to go to university.

Henderson said a rigorous admissions policy was being drawn up to prevent middle-class parents from “gaming” the system to monopolise places. The proposals will be put forward to the government’s free schools programme, a key part of its levelling up agenda.”

Quote “middle-class parents from “gaming” the system to monopolise places”

Another paradox here - if the bright DC of the middle classes in state schools (selective or otherwise) are indeed elbowed out of Oxbridge and treated the same as the Etonians, then essentially there is more space again, for Etonians.

@HoneyMobster I suppose I didn't know how substantive the 'worked with' or the 'setting up' concerning Eton actually was/is on the spectrum between 'real ongoing concrete financial and actual resources that genuinely makes a difference' and 'lip service and lending a brand for marketing and political reasons'. I recall reading some stories back int he day so wasn't surprised to see the mention of Harris here but have also seen enough stories from the inside to realise the potential for a disconnect in substance and for the heroic carrying some words can perform.

Is Eton is proposing to pool its endowment, its fee and other income, the teachers and any of the pupils across the other locations or Westminster did the same with Harris? Together with the effects of selection and weeding out pupils both at the application stage and throughout their time at the school then i can see that might still relatively advantage the pupils.

@ErrolTheDragon makes many excellent points.

STEM students simply don't have the time to hold down a p/t job in term time. The Christmas and Easter holidays were always pretty full on with work too. We went away as a family for one week in the Easter holiday of DD's 1st year and she was really worried about missing work time, so took lots of revision with her (all my fault for celebrating a big birthday).

Because of the shorter terms, rent costs aren't too bad. DD's college has a range of prices: en suite rooms are more expensive than shared bathrooms. The 1st & 4th year accommodation is the most expensive. In her 2nd year she was in the old court in a small room but with a fab view. In her curtailed 3rd year, she was in a room in a college-owned Victorian house on the main site. This had a proper kitchen rather than the 2 ring hob, and even had a freezer. This was the cheapest of all as it needed redecorating. Because it was a bit shabby, they allowed her to leave stuff over the Christmas holidays as they weren't letting it out, but still only charged for 9 weeks. In her 4 undergrad/Masters years, her student loan always covered her accommodation.

Something else that might help is the Cambridge Bursary. DD was in receipt of this as DH was self-employed for almost the entirety of her degree, and not earning much. I think this is paid in week 4 or 5 of every term. She certainly managed fine for money, but largely self-catered, eats a vegan diet and is quite frugal.

My dc rent at her Oxford college was approximately £4.5k plus food. The kitchen was tiny and poorly equipped, and quite difficult to contend with during the second term when they had to self-cater due to lockdown rules. The shared toilet/bathroom facilities were so-so, the laundry room was subsidised. They coped though!

Dc is currently living in a college owned house on a 40 week contract and which costs approximately £7.5k including all bills. The house looks nice but isn't very well maintained - dodgy electrics, temperamental heating, broken dishwasher etc. But at least they don't have to vacate at the end of every term which was an extra expense to factor in as we don't have a car.

She will be living in for the 3rd year.

She gets a medium size bursary which is a great help.

Yes, clearing the room every term or storing stuff adds costs; our DC has no kitchen at all, so no chance to make cheaper food.

Need for some formal wear, black shoes, subfusc - it does add up.

Plus the need to do (quite a bit of) academic work through Easter and Christmas, and even the summer before starting, has left less time for earning.

I've just read The Times article which ErrollTheDragon linked to

" At the moment the really disadvantaged candidates are arguably the white males from outstanding independent schools. "

😂

How they keep a straight face coming up with this nonsense I do not know. I know the DC don't get to choose where they go to school, but positioning bought privilege as some kind of enforced disadvantage that parents couldn't possibly opt out of is priceless.