Nadim wading into Oxbrdige entrance debate

[mids2019]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10793175/Thinktank-Oxbridge-discriminating-against-grammar-schools-unfairly-impact-black-pupils.html

DM article here so maybe a bit of bias and the article is a little confused.

I get the impression that our new education Secretary (who is a big fan of grammar schools) has started to notice the diversity policies explicitly stated by Oxbridge in its attempts to take in students from comprehensives/deprived backgrounds.

I noted his dislike of discrimination of any form and I am taking this as a warning to top universities not to engage in activity which may be perceived as positive discrimination.

I understand that if grammar schools seem to be a link to allowing ethnic minorities to gain Oxbrdige places this is a good thing however it would seem not many from grammar schools are truly deprived socially so the situation is complex.

Do you think the government should be involving itself with this vexed issue of leaving to HE leaders.

(I think Nadim's inbox maybe overflowing with a mail's from concerned grammar/independent school parents whose children may not have got their university of choice)

@hercisback I have no reason to be bitter . My DS has 3 excellent offers to university this year and he is delighted. But the process has been very tough and if you have read any of the university application threads on here you would understand that everyone from all sectors feels the process is somewhat broken.

@marshabradyo Funny how you assume my DC is privately educated - state comp ….. but having been on some wonderfully supportive mumsnet threads through the university application process this year I can empathise will DCs from all the sectors as it has been tough on all of them.

And yes - I was referring to top universities in general - not oxbridge…as the issues at oxbridge in terms of who is getting in are now starting to bleed into the next layer down….kids with a clean sweep of A star grades and 9s at gcse are struggling to get university offers this year
.( both state and private).

Indeed. And as has already been explained ad infinitum nobody is being penalised, universities are attempting to assess potential and achievements within the context in which they were gained.

DD1 and DS went to highly academic grammar schools; DD2 went to a secondary modern. Did her As take more determination, self-discipline and self-motivation than her older siblings'? Absolutely, 100%, there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind about that. And that has largely been borne out by her subsequent academic achievements.

Iggle no not at all I didn’t think either way re your dd

I was more responding to this

Is what you mean 'buying a private education no longer seems to guarantee the place at Oxbridge that you wanted?'

I don’t think anyone who uses private thinks there’s a guarantee

@TizerorFizz - you don’t seem to understand the contextual data taken into account by Oxford and Cambridge. And 100% of schools can have a problem for a year or two with specific subjects, so all children from all backgrounds can be affected by that. Having a SAHM is not really going to help you get that A* in chemistry or whatever - if parental tuition was that amazing, more children would be successfully home educated.

Within the short thread ‘Highgate v Kings Canterbury’ in the Education Forum, @Canyouengineerfreespeech has provided a link to a list of the most successful 100 English schools in terms of Oxbridge intake. I cannot link to it on my phone.

Only 47 of these schools are independent. Of the 53 state schools there are 22 grammar schools, 21 sixth form colleges, five comprehensives, three FE colleges and only two academies. Eton at No 3 is bracketed by sixth form colleges at Nos 2 and 4: the rank of the highest placed grammar is 14.

Obviously the number of state schools in England is at least several times the number of independents, and there is good evidence that academic selection into the sixth form, can yield very highly able cohorts. Social selection into certain comprehensives with few pupils on FSMs is also shown to yield able cohorts (Sutton Trust). I suspect a number of the state schools on the list share student bodies with certain demographic features and that it does not particularly address the WP question. It is interesting nonetheless.

State schools absolutely should be funded to enable their pupils to reach their full potential but the fact is they are not, and certainly haven’t been in the last 20 years, if ever. If they were, private schools would not exist. It’s an ideal that will never happen in this country. So saying this doesn’t actually move the discussion on.

Reading with intrigue although I'm getting overwhelmed with all the various parts of information, does anyone have a concise summary of the main points please ?

In general when a few years ago universities were allowed to increase their numbers for those with AAB grades and higher (I think it was) places increased (if the university had the physical space). Eg my son did the same course as his sister at Bristol but 13 years later and there were double the number of students on the course. In my view it became easier not harder to get in because of that.

However the last few years have been very complicated because of covid and people postponing then then applying a year later. I think UK population numbers of 18 year olds have probably risen too (we certainly have 18m more people in the UK than when I was born for starters and when I went to university only 15% of people got to go so it is a whole new complicated ball game.)

What employers choose is relevant too as most people leaving university want a graduate job and employers certainly don't only recruit from Oxbridge.

I don't think it is in fair that in England some areas of the country have different kinds of state schools. It should be the same throughout whether that is all comprehensives and no grammar schools or church schools or every area to have all of those.

I wish they'd include in those sorts of stats the size of the school/college. The only one in my county that makes the table is ginormous!

www.keystonetutors.com/news/oxbridge-which-schools-get-the-most-offers#

@marshabradyo apologies - I think I was probably referring to something someone else said as I agree with what you said 😵‍💫….I seem to have the memory of a goldfish these days!

Do you think the government should be involving itself with this vexed issue of leaving to HE leaders.

Is it really wading in when the Education Minister makes a comment about education? HE, and FE, is important to and funded by the whole country so why wouldn't he have a part in the discussion?

@Igglepigglesblankie

I think you are right about grade inflation making university entrance more problematic in general and more difficult to pick out the truly academically outstanding.

You could argue that at least Oxbridge interview to differentiate between candidates but other universities do not have that luxury so there must be a limited means to pick between candidates with near perfect grades especially for competitive courses. It is actually at these universities that positive (or negative) discrimination is virtually impossible to prove as I guess there is a limited amount of feedback for rejected candidates.

If a candidate with a clean sweep of 9s and A stars are being rejected both by Oxbridge and possibly others I would think you would feel our HE entrance system has become a lottery and how do you continue to have confidence in the system.

With a n Education Secretary very much in favour of strong schools supporting others I doubt he would want to see to many anecdotes of applicants from traditionally academic schools being rejected with no clearly obvious reason.

Yes, you need a ‘% of intake applied’ stat to put those numbers in context. 100 out of 200 is a very different stat from 100 out of 2000, and a ‘% of intake on academic route’ - ie A levels or IB - would be another interesting comparator, as would % FSM/ Pypil Premium. If a non-selective sixth form of normal size is teaching both A levels and vocational courses, has high PP numbers and a decent % of A level students who apply to Oxbridge, that’s a significant difference from a selective school with only A levels and virtually 0 % PP getting the same number.

@mids2019 - for every anecdote of an applicant from a traditionally academic school being rejected for “no clearly obvious reason,” there is an anecdote of an applicant from a “bog standard comprehensive” being rejected for “no clearly obvious reason” (unless, of course, you secretly think that the same grades are worth less if achieved by a child at a comprehensive, and that they must have been given huge allowances in the entrance exams and interviews, because they are obviously inferior or they wouldn’t be in a “bog standard comprehensive” in the first place). That’s the problem with anecdotes.

@LetitiaLeghorn

good point. I would think many would argue universities should be truly autonomous institutions and therefore immune to government influence. In reality all universities are state institutions and are therefore ultimately accountable to government and the electorate.

I would think the education Secretary possibly would not want to be drawn into this vexed discussion but it does look like he has a defined perspective.

I think the concern for those supporting widening participation perfectly laudibly is that the government will link WP with its anti 'woke' agenda and argue there is a left wing bias against some of the UK's most venerable schools

it remains to be seen whether the government will take action at some point on this issue and how. I do feel though that the government's position is that possibly WP has gone far enough as it is evident that some in the private sector are upset.

Oxbridge admission is a fairly niche but important part of educational policy but those that do have an interest are relatively influential.

@cantkeepawayforever but why let pesky facts spoil a good narrative?

I absolutely agree with your observation, and indeed @ErrolTheDragon's a bit further up.

So, it goes back to the question: has the increase in the proportion of students at Oxford and Cambridge who come from state school, and particularly comprehensive school, backgrounds actually lowered the standard of the degrees being achieved? Because if it hasn’t, then to insist that there must be a phenomenally good and obvious reason not to give an Oxbridge place to a child from a highly selective, academic school just looks like an insistence that once advantaged in life, you should continue to benefit from all the advantages forever, even if letting others have a look in is not actually harming the overall quality of education.

@Walkaround

I agree data wins but politics is sometimes not all about the data.

Gordon Brown politicised Oxbridge entrance with the one example of Laura Spence so it is conceivable Nadim will do the same but in an opposite fashion.

It is probably the private sector that is more likely to pressure the government on 'lost ' Oxbridge places and I think the government may be in a place to listen.

I agree about WP and anti woke stuff OP. I said this upthread. WP is not new. To now cast doubts upon it in some kind of political scheming is despicable. Makes one wonder what levelling up actually means.

@mids2019 - politics has nothing whatsoever to do with either truth or data - this Government has proven that many times over.

@Walkaround

with regard to graduate quality it's difficult to objectively assess. One possible (though flawed) metric is to use average earnings after graduation but as private school numbers fall at Oxbridge it may be that graduates have ambitions towards socially useful careers such as teaching and academia as well as those in finance and law for instance . It may be that in future some may wrongly argue that Oxbridge graduate 'product' has diminished in value.

A lot of high profile members in society in a range of fields are privately educated and it remains to be seen whether this continues to be the case with a reduced chance of an Oxbridge gate way.

I think there may be cases for competitive graduate positions where a privately schooled candidate from St Andrews is pitched against a state candidate from Oxbridge and it is the result of such completion which will be important.

@mids2019 - surely the only accurate way to assess the quality of an academic degree is to look at the quality of the graduates going on to postgraduate degrees and groundbreaking academic research? In all honesty, what has an academic degree really got to do with a high paid career in the City? Money brings power is all - the wealthy and powerful dictate to everyone what is worthwhile, and they will always be inclined to deem money and power to be the only two worthwhile things in life.

@cantkeepawayforever abd @boys3 , if your comments about needing a per cent of applicants accepted refers to the table I mentioned that @ErrolTheDragon kindly linked to, I fully agree. Happily this is included, in the next column.

Poetry, no. The percentage is the success rate FROM THE APPLICATIONS MADE. Not the % applications or % success rate from the size of the entire cohort in the 6th form.

So a 2000 pupil sixth form with 20 applications and 10 acceptances has a 50% figure in the table linked.

So does a 100 pupil sixth form with 20 applications and 10 acceptances.

They're very different, and the table doesn't give a true indication of this.

Thanks, @cantkeepawayforever , point taken.