Extracurricular - when does it matter?

[Fireflygal]

More for my interest.

I have older dc who have gone through the Uni process and 2 who will applying. All have applied or planning to apply to competitive universities so non academic extracurricular activities haven't been a factor on PS. They might have added a sentence at the end of PS if sufficient space but it was never referred to in interviews.

However friends with DC applying say extracurricular is important "to show they are rounded" and I often see comments on posts about DoE or music grades as helping Uni applications.

I know US College applications are getting popular and I think it's much more relevant to their applications but when does it matter for UK universities? I appreciate you can convert music grades to UCAS points so that might be a factor but generally do Uni admissions look for the person to be "rounded" or is it still mostly academic based?

Also if it isn't relevant where has this belief come from? A good friend is unshakeable in her view Oxbridge will care about their Grade 8 whereas I know it isn't the case.

I think encouraging independent experiences (such as sports, hobbies etc)is good for teens and it helps to cope with Uni but not sure it helps to actually get in??

I’m going to go slightly against the grain here - I think it has some importance in some subject areas. For example, I interview for a healthcare science degree and some of our questions will ask about team working, how they have over come challenging situations etc. Ultimately we want to recruit students who we think will be the right fit for working with patients and working in the NHS. Of course we want high grades and the interview asks some tricky science questions too.

So although extra-curricular activities aren’t essential, the best answers I get are from students who have done something extra-curricular and can articulate the transferable skills and challenges they faced. Just saying you have achieved grade 8 violin isn’t much use, but explaining the challenge, time management, perseverance etc is.

I hope that we are moving to a situation in which some of these extra curricular activities (especially the ones not accessible to all) make no difference to university applications.

Not every applicant comes from a background where they can afford to learn a musical instrument, or have a supportive parent who is willing or able to transport them to sporting fixtures.

DS only mentioned non-subject related things in the final sentence of his personal statement, and managed to get five offers, including from Cambridge. At his interviews they asked one ice-breaker question to put him at ease, then launched straight into the subject-specific problem solving exercises.

@poetryandwine
I think class is irrelevant if the student is good. Don’t forget FSM children with PP money might have funded lessons and extras to give them confidence. They really should be able to be proud of their achievements instead of having to hide them. Work isn’t the only mark of a poorer child. Some really are great musicians too! Or even volunteer in a meaningful way whilst doing their school work. It really shouldn’t just be about paid work but lots of achievements and interests are worth doing to make DC more interesting. I think it’s a shame a few sentences cannot be used (and read) about how a child has made an effort to do more. It’s not something available to better off DC. I’m very much aware that poorer DC in my area are encouraged to do as much as they can and money is found where necessary. If no one cares, it’s a huge shame.

@CupcakesK and @TizerorFizz, I have never been opposed to extracurriculars! They are important for personal development. We also have a consensus here that such involvement (or, I would say, significant term time employment) enhances skills important for uni and later success.

But availability in certain schools is patchy at best, and the ability to weave one’s involvement into the PS effectively is variable, depending more than it should on family and school. Absent exceptional involvement or achievement, I would think that when applying to Schools like mine requiring 3 As or better, an 80/20 split in the PS seems a little lightweight. Maybe I am wrong.

I agree with both of you and others that the (uni or employment) interview is a good time for this component. Also, at that stage the depth of one’s enthusiasm or involvement can more easily be probed

@Blanketpolicy may I ask which unis your DC applied to and what were the grades requirements ? Has he started yet and enjoyed his final choice?
my DC, now year 12, is thinking about applying for mech engineering and trying to get my head around it, having studied a different subject outside of the UK.

@11plusNewbie they were all the main Scottish unis and it was Scottish Highers he applied with. He starts this September.

Extracurricular activities can be important in the relatively niche area of degree-level apprenticeships but simply because the recruitment process experienced by a 21yo undergraduate is essentially the same for a 17yo school/college student. In my experience of DC going down this route, the extracurriculars that matter are 'humdrum' retail or hospitality jobs rather than, say, some potentially parent-engineered work experience.

Holding down a paid (or volunteer) position over a period of time can demonstrate so much more in terms of staying power, self-organisation and capacity to undertake simple tasks well without constant supervision as well as potential flashes of initiative and emotional intelligence when dealing with tricky customers or colleagues.

I agree with @TizerorFizz that musical and other hobby/interest-related activity is important in developing a person and as a means of demonstrating that. As @poetryandwine says, it probably needs to be probed to understand to the context and, whilst job interviews allow for that, the PS does not.

I was intrigued to see a MN thread recently about a well established business offering 'young [insert occupation] summer work experiences' at chunky single thousands of pounds for a week or a fortnight. These trade on the fears and ambitions demonstrated by some of your friends @Fireflygal.

On a brighter note, the pandemic has resulted in universities and major employers running many more online 'what it is really like' information events. This gives DC in, say, Barrow-in-Furness as much of a chance to understand and explore as those in, say, Esther and allows all to focus their time on their studies, hobbies and 'humdrum' part-time jobs.

The Durham section on writing a PS does actually say that they are interested in extracurricular activities.

Re the connection between Mathematics an music, this might be of interest?
www.gresham.ac.uk/watch-now/series/maths-music

I have one at Bath, one at Swansea, neither top-teir unis... they expected very little in the way of extra curricular on the application.

But, both have chosen courses with a year's placement and are expected to have rounded CVs, with hobbies, work experience, life experiences etc for applying for those.

Extracurricular is only relevant if it is subject related or at a very high level. For example, if you have competed in sport at national level (national team member) or are an exceptionally gifted musician with non-school related national performance history then it is worth mentioning as I have known students be offered bursaries for their extracurricular. Otherwise no.

I would say 80/20 is fine but no more than 20 for additional activities or challenges. If a student wants or needs to use more than 80% to demonstrate that they are suitable for the degree and the degree is suitable for them that’s fine as long as it is not waffle.
Some students manage to differentiate themselves by linking degree subject specific thoughts to another interest. Needs to be fresh and not forced though.

For graduate recruitment (of which I do quite a bit) listing a decent extra curricular does make someone more memorable. (And with an assessment day you will have 16 people to assess over about 7 hours so it is useful to stand out.)

I had someone once who had a world record for something ridiculously obscure and completely useless. (Think along the lines of “how many eggs can you balance on your head!”)

He was very memorable. Because we were all human and so a bit fascinated. “So how did you decide to balance a load of eggs on your head.” “What happens when you get the world record.”

We offered him a job despite the job being complete unrelated to eggs…..

why did the representatives of Manchester and Durham at the online Russell Group massive advertisinginformation sessions this week explicitly say that the PS should be 80/20 academic/outside interests.

Extracurricular activities can give an opportunity for a student to demonstrate transferable skills that are relevant to the course or generally being a good student eg self motivation, tenacity, independence, team work, leadership, time management, managing stress etc. I would guess what they are looking for in the 20% is more about the applicant being able to identify relevant skills and qualities that are needed to succeed at university and in their chosen subject area, or something that has given them an insight relevant to their course, and using their extracurricular activities to demonstrate that rather than just a list of achievements.

There are also 'niche' areas (e.g. conservatoire courses for music, drama or dance) where the extracurricular is the point of the application. No point in going on about your history A-level when applying for a performance degree at conservatoire....

In fact, DS probably broke ALL rules of PS writing when he started his off with an extra-curricular activity he did very seriously up to the age of 10 but then largely gave up ..... I'd apply the words 'startlingly memorable' to his PS, as well as 'very non standard' and 'perfectly encapsulating him'!

At our higher education evening the sixth form head said the personal statement should be about your passion for the relevant subject, but that many universities don't bother reading them, or care much about outside activities unless directly related aNd are part of the applicant demonstrating said passion.
Having gone through the US system, you are right that extra curricular activities are valued much more highly. But they also don't have a system that reduces your choices to three or four subjects in the last two years of school or an exam based entry. You still take a wide range of subjects and grades are based on coursework and end of term exams. You also don't go direct in to medicine for example, you have to have a undergraduate degree, which doesn't even have to be science based (though you have to do relevant courses and sit the required exams).
But extracurricular activities are valuable in themselves, and if a child is interested and the wherewithal they should definitely be encouraged. But I don't think unis here care much.

@poetryandwine I wonder if study at Junior Conservatoire and lead the sonfonia should be mentioned? Thanks.

@User11010866, I think these definitely worth mentioning. Tying them into one’s degree plans if relevant, or mentioning the benefits of doing this along with school work if not, is important.

Following on from what @Xenia and @TizerorFizz were saying, IMO this is also a worthwhile entry for the CV later. In certain employment sectors this will be a great talking point

Having been through the process 3 times, I have to say I have yet to come across an admissions tutor who was interested in extra-curricular. One actually said to DS 'I couldn't give t* what students do in their spare time.' Another memorably said that it didn't matter what extra-curricular activities someone did at school 'because on my course they won't have time to do anything but study'. Never did discover if he was being serious as DS didn't go there .

That said, I do agree with PPs who say that having some outside interests probably makes a student a more well-rounded person and probably more interesting to interview and, potentially, to employ. I think the whole idea of transferable skills mentioned by @CupcakesK is key. One of mine was head prefect and it wasn't a honorary position, they had to organise sixth form events, gives talks and presentations to fellow pupils, parents and visiting dignitaries, and be on duty at all parents' evenings, sports days, and various other occasions so they mention that in terms of time management and organisational skills, plus leadership experience.

The problem with university staff giving advice purely on their courses so that don’t know about the jobs market outside their university bubble. The vast majority of students do have to think post degree employment and it won’t be with a university.

i also couldn’t imagine my DDs not being able to pursue their interests. Itiz part of who they are as adults. Many of which didn’t cost much at all. Some were free. They also did similar jobs to @thing47 which took time and enthusiasm as well as organising and taking part in school/house events. None of that cost anything.

Even though extra curricular was very important to ds's application (he has applied for music) ultimately all of the places he applied to would have offered him a place as long as he passed their audition (though his Grade 5 theory was a pre-requisite for a couple of them).

Extra curricular is only really relevant if it can be directly related to the course (apart from Durham, they seem to love it).

@MarchingFrogs, Agree on the benefits but competitive Unis don't care. If you studied music and it helped your maths skills they want to see the results I.e High score on the MAT or STEP.

You have however highlighted that perhaps in previous generations extra curriculum activities IMPLIED ability..perhaps that was needed when Uni applications were much lower and there wasn't objective testing such as pre interview testings MAT/STEP/BMAT.

Now (for Maths applications) if you don't score highly on the MAT your application is discarded so your PS doesn't make a difference at all.

Yes but plenty have tutoring for those types of exams. What’s the difference between that money and spending it on other extras? Tutoring is not a level playing field either. It favours the well off or those in more academic schSome jnjbersutuez make it

I posted merely was merely for interest, re the connection between music 'the thing' and mathematics 'the thing', not trying to imply that any university (and of course, especially not the competitive ones) would look at one's grade 8 distinction sousaphone or whatever as trumping actual evidence - or the lack of it- of mathematical ability🙂.

Agh! To continue!

Tutored DC have an advantage over DC whose parents cannot afford it. The playing fields are not even.

Some universities will use the PS as a tie breaker. They clearly say that. Bristol for one.