Being a small fish in a big pond or a big fish in a small one?

[DrunkenUnicorn]

Sorry about the title, not sure on the best way to phrase it.

What I was hoping to ask was other people’s experiences of aiming high, at places where they have worked very hard and just scraped in and are therefore lower than many of the other students, vs somewhere where your grades were comfortably above the entry requirements? How have your DC fared if they have gone to a uni at either end of that scale?

I think I read on here there was a theory (which I now stupidly have forgotten the name of) which basically said do not attend a university where you have got in by the skin of your teeth/have the minimum entry requirements on the basis that data showed people didn’t achieve well if they felt unintelligent compared to the majority, that it really knocked their confidence.

This is something that I understand quite well. DS found it quite a knock and took a while going from his primary to grammar. He did get over it and found his feet after the first year or two. But he definitely found it dented his confidence to be in the bottom 1/3 for everything. This then became a self fulfilling prophecy- he thought he wasn’t clever enough so he didn’t try as hard because he felt it hopeless. It made him quite unhappy at the time.

Obviously at 18 he’s more mature and hopefully resilient than at 11/12. However in discussions recently he’s said that he doesn’t want to go back to feeling that he’s below the majority and will struggle to keep up.

So I was wondering if anyone could share their experiences of DC who’ve either gone somewhere where perhaps they’ve scraped in/missed a grade but still accepted etc compared to others who chose a uni/course because they really liked the vibe/it felt like ‘the one’, even tho the average grade is a little lower than DC predicted/achieved. Are they happy? Would they do the same again?

He had 5 years to find his feet in high school, whereas a degree is only 3 years. Plus, if he’s moving away to Uni, that is a lot of change to get used to, not only academic but looking after himself and finding new friends. He needs to go with confidence in himself.

He should go where he feels comfortable and do something that excites him. He will feel pressure for both places but it really depends on his resilience, confidence and the support the university provides.
Is he also moving away from home? If so then try factor this is because as exciting as it is it is also a massive change that will take time to adjust to.
Personally I’d encourage him to not push himself too hard too soon.

Id go big fish small pond- it’s competitive enough at Uni depending on subject he is doing and his personality.

My DS1 thrives on competition and will push himself to be better if he is around cleverer people. DS2 is the opposite and wants an easier life where he can get by with doing OK

Do what’s best for him and his personality

BIL went from being a big fish in a (very) small pond to a (very) small fish in a big pond. To continue the metaphor he all but drowned and at nearly 50 still hasn't recovered.

If he is at a grammar then other than say Oxbridge he is unlikely to be one of the "not clever" ones at most unis.

Hi, OP -

My experience as a personal tutor in a very good but not super elite Russell Group university suggests that confidence and enthusiasm are important. That is a bit different from what you asked about.

Some students can recognise that they came in with a deficit, but their enthusiasm for a certain uni or degree programme sparks a previously unplumbed level of dedication to their studies. They may struggle at first and they may always have to work harder than others, but they tend to be fine.

Other students are intimidated by struggle. If your DS already feels that way and needs to build his confidence, I would think he should give serious consideration to those programmes where he will walk in feeling like an equal with his head held high.

BTW, feeling intimidated by struggle isn’t correlated with ability. In my STEM subject a number of students coast into uni with superb A levels and hit a wall upon encountering their first difficulties at university, or coast through university and find they cannot write a PhD for fear of failure. Students at all levels need resilience. This is why I would always prioritise confidence building

I think it depends on how competitive you are talking and how much work and how near the scrape. Unless his predicted grades are very exaggerated (which I accept some schools do do) then he isn’t likely to get an offer from anywhere really competitive if he couldn’t cope with the course. If you look at the discoveruni website it gives a breakdown of UCAS points for those on the course, which can be vastly different in either direction than the standard offer. Some courses may have info from FOI requests on that FOI website (what do they know??) as sometimes people ask things such as “what is the average number of A grades for offer holders of x course at y university”. It may reassure him that not everyone has 4As, or confirm his fears in which case at least he knows what he’s dealing with.
He should really go to his first choice based on the course content and the city/university. He shouldn’t pick somewhere he doesn’t want to go based on prestige but equally he may regret picking somewhere he doesn’t want to go based in it being an easy option. His anxiety may just get kicked three years down the road when he is applying for graduate recruitment schemes against people at “better” universities for which he had an offer.
Maybe a gap year would be a good option for him.

I think it really depends on his perception. One of my DC absolutely thrives on a challenge and beating the odds, another is extremely laid back and the third struggles if they feel they’re not doing brilliantly. They each chose universities which suit them (fingers crossed, one is yet to start!). I know it has been very hard in the last couple of years but I really recommend encouraging him to go and have a look round any he’s considering. I know of a few young people, including two of my DC, who completely changed their choices when they went to open days. If he finds a place and course he really likes, that will hopefully help him to feel more confident. In my experience, at each stage my DC have been among more diverse groups and at uni there have been a range of attitudes and abilities.

This is an interesting question and thread @DrunkenUnicorn. We often fall into the trap of thinking progression (emotional, academic, career) is linear - when it is not; there can be plateaus, dips and moments of acceleration - certainly that is my experience when reflecting on my DC's lives so far and my own.

This means that the same person might benefit from a 'small pond' period at one time but also a 'big pond' period at another. If you are conscious of this, in a positive non-limiting way, that it can be helpful when making major life decisions.

If you are not aware that ponds can be different sizes, or of their potential impact, it can be a shock as @hanahsaunt's BIL discovered apparently! The knack is to avoid being oblivious to that fact but also not to be overly cautious. Big ponds can be transformative for a previous small ponder, at the right time, and visa versa.

One of my DC used this approach to good effect when thinking about university and degree apprenticeship choices and, in the case of the latter, the team structures and the specific roles on offer.

Big fish, small pond every time.

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies.

He is definitely the sort of person, like @Letsgoforaskip’s third DC, who excels when they feel they are doing well within their cohort. He doesn’t want to be ‘the best’, but definitely doesn’t do well if he feels he’s not up to it in comparison with his peers. He seems to have really enjoyed and done well at A level as he’s been able to drop the subjects he struggled with, vs the ones where he was in the top half of the class. The better he does, the more his confidence grows, and thus the better he does (at least that is how it seems from my perspective).

I suppose it partly connects to my possibly misguided belief that you ‘should’ go to the ‘best’ that you can get into (as per league tables). That was what was drilled into us when I was at school, and having spoken to friends about this recently, many in professional roles still think this is the case. On the one hand I can see that league tables are not the be all and end all and completely irrelevant if you’re unhappy. However, I am also aware (and have seen discussed on these boards) that destination does matter to recruiters/careers later on. That judgements are made about you based on your university and it’s reputation.

His UCAS grades were ABB. At the time one of the Bs were borderline B/C. His current ‘most likely to achieve grades’ as issued by the school are ABB (with the other B now on the cusp of B/A having achieved As in his most recent assessments). As far as I can tell, I don’t think the school over inflate their predictions.

He had 5 offers.

One aspirational RG -AAB - he discounted it as didn’t love it when they went to the offer holder day, it was a stretch to get in and thought he might be out of his depth if he did make it.

One RG- ABB- discounted as he changed his mind and wanted a campus feel rather than spread across a city.

One non RG but highly ranked and well thought of. He really really liked it when he visited. Particularly the course modules. It’s made his top 2. Standard offer ABB, reduced to BBB if he firms. After the offer holder day it was his firm choice for a bit. However, their actual data shows many students exceed these entry requirements by quite a stretch, which I think he is dwelling on and wondering if that will mean he’s starting on the back foot.

Mid league uni that has a good rep for his subject- BBB reduced to BBC because they liked his PS. He liked this one but not as much as the two he’s torn between. Was in clearing for quite a while this year.

Mid league uni that offered a very niche course giving amazing placement opportunities. We visited this uni for that particular course. He subsequently decided it was a bit too narrow despite being really keen due to placement. However, he loved the department and the uni as a whole when we went round. The staff were brilliant as were the students. They clearly had a rapport and knew each other well. They were interested in him and interesting themselves, he chatted to them for over an hour. We were really impressed. It had a really good vibe. So he decided to apply to the broader course they offered instead. Standard offer BBC, however average grades are lower and the course was still in clearing as the term started. They have offered unconditional if he firms.

He is unsure between the BBB non RG but good rep uni, and the unconditional that he loved. I think he’s torn between the idea of going to a highly ranked uni but possibly feeling out of his depth, vs going to the unconditional that really felt right when he visited that may be not as well thought of when it comes to post uni career opportunities.

I can see the pros and cons of both so don’t know which way to advise him… and this needs to be his decision so that he can be happy there, rather than feeling this was what parents/teachers wanted him to do. Both Unis are 3/4hours away by car, but the higher ranking is a direct train ride away. So neither close to home.

Thank you for all of your contributions.

I think they both sound excellent choices. I don’t think he should worry about the fact that the BBB offer uni often takes students who exceed their offer grades. A level results will be irrelevant as soon as he starts and if he is keen on the course that should stand him in good stead. My similar child has loved uni because they can select more options than they could at sixth form and choose things they are genuinely interested in.
As others have said, there is so much more to uni than the studying. Some students may start with top grades but get distracted by their first taste of freedom or find organisation a challenge.
My oldest was very torn between two choices. The rather random way he decided was to pretend he only had the one offer and see which one made him feel happier!
It sounds as though it’s a win win situation. Good luck to him!

Malcolm Gladwell has addressed this issue both in a talk called ‘Why You Shouldn’t Go to Harvard’ and in more detail in a chapter of his book David and Goliath called “If I’d gone to the University of Maryland < i.e. a small pond > I’d still be in Science.” I think you can tell from these titles that he is of the opinion that being a big fish in a small pond is better.

According to Malcolm, the key to understanding this issue is relative deprivation theory. (This might indeed be the theory you are referring to in your initial post, OP.) People tend to judge themselves relative to people in their immediate vicinity. Students who are getting below average marks at higher ranking universities get demoralised and don’t do as well as they could have done at a lower ranking university where they would have been one of the top dogs.

The obvious counter argument would be that students at Harvard and establishments of its ilk, even those bumping along at the bottom, would still benefit from having had a more rigorous and challenging education. However, in Malcolm’s book he documents the academic successes of Economics postgrads from various colleges as measured by publication rate in prestigious journals. The trend from most successful to least was:

Top dogs from top schools
Top dogs from lower ranked schools
Underdogs from top schools
Underdogs from lower ranked schools

In other words, ‘top doggedness’ seems to be trumping educational establishment. Self-perception overrides other factors.

It’s an interesting question and, while Malcolm’s findings are intriguing, I don’t think it’s possible to say anything definitive for individual cases.

Thank you! Yes that’s the guy I was thinking of but couldn’t remember the exact details!

Thank you

It utterly depends on the course. A first from a mid ranking university in the uk doesn’t trump a 2:1 from a high ranking RG or other university - but it could if the grad ticks the other selection boxes. So many firms pre test and then test applicants thoroughly so the university attended and degree is only part of the picture. If they are looking for the brightest and best, they test to find that. However employment stats are often better at top ranking universities but it depends on subject. And the ambition snd drive of the grad.

Also some employers don’t like to see an AAA student on a BBB course. It lacks ambition and it’s taking the easy route. They will wonder why the student didn’t want a better university/course. They might ask this at interview.

Most grad schemes take 1st or 2:1. Some universities give way more firsts than others. Some employers look at mid division universities and don’t think the first means such a student is better than a 2:1 holder from a top 10 university.

Also students won’t compare the A level grades they hold when they are at uni. They will just get on with the course. Some do better than their A level grades suggest and some won’t. You cannot choose based on other students’ possible grades. They might be choosing an easy option too! Who actually says the big fish have the best A levels anyway?

If a course is in clearing the university will be desperate to fill it. Look closely at employment stats. These give you some indication as to whether the grads are employable. Assuming the goal is a job of course!

Most universities in the UK expect very little work of students. As long as he's not going to Oxford or Cambridge, if he gets into a university he'll probably be fine, if he's prepared to do a bit of work. Better than spending 3 years partying.

If everyone at university was working flat out and competing, as they may be in some grammar schools, that would be different. But I don't think it's like that at undergraduate level at university, unless you're at Oxbridge. I think he should choose the best education he can find that will take him. And then push himself a bit, which most other students won't be doing. I imagine that students don't really know how well their friends are doing anyway.

Do employers really keep tabs on the entry requirements for every degree course at every university? It's a wonder that some find the time actually to run their business. Makes sense now that some prefer only to recruit from a handful of universities.

If it saves someone a bit of time, when it comes to getting applications from DD's course at the University of Birmingham (BA IR with French), the entry requirements changed from ABB to AAB for the 2019 intake.

I think it depends on personality. I think I tend to perform better in a "small fish, big pond" environment but my eldest DD seems to be the opposite. Not sure about my youngest yet but I suspect she takes more after me.

Don't forget @DrunkenUnicorn there are different routes through the educational maze, and often the primary purpose is to get you to the next stage, be that under-grad, post-grad studies, apprenticeship, professional qualifications or a job!

DD2 went to a mid-rank non-RG university which sounds similar to the one your DS likes the look of. She had a great time, lots of partying, played sport for her university and did enough work to get a very good degree. She then went to a much higher ranked university for her Masters, behind only Oxford for her field of study (so more highly regarded than Cambridge or any other RG university), scaled the sport and social life right back for a year, worked extremely hard and got a distinction. Now she is looking at PhDs and not a single person she has spoken to about applying have referenced her first degree – they are really only interested in her Masters, and more specifically the original research she carried out as the basis for her dissertation.

So based on our experience, I would definitely say your DS should spend 3 (or 4) years at the university he likes, on a course he is really inspired by. He can always 'upgrade' later if he chooses to do that.

We often fall into the trap of thinking progression (emotional, academic, career) is linear - when it is not; there can be plateaus, dips and moments of acceleration - certainly that is my experience when reflecting on my DC's lives so far and my own.

This means that the same person might benefit from a 'small pond' period at one time but also a 'big pond' period at another.

What PerpetualOptimist has written is so important to bear in mind.

It reminds me of a professor I know whose school exams didn’t go so well. He went off to a polytechnic - in the old days before a lot of such institutions became universities - but then went to Oxford to do a PhD followed by postdoctoral research at Cambridge and a fruitful career in academia.

His life was not over because he ended up in a small pond initially. He probably benefited from having the chance to grow up a bit and gain confidence in a less stressful environment. The ‘top dog’ bounce he enjoyed then took him to Oxbridge. Maybe if he’d gone there too early he’d have experienced an underdog slump instead and decided the academic life wasn’t for him.

People mature at different rates and the brain keeps on developing well into the 20s - it's good to be aware of the changing nature of your own requirements.

@glowingcandle

I think it depends on personality. I think I tend to perform better in a "small fish, big pond" environment but my eldest DD seems to be the opposite. Not sure about my youngest yet but I suspect she takes more after me.

Yes. DD chose the 'big pond', fully aware it would be a challenge, hard work and she'd be middling there.

It is a very good question. From my experience, it depends on personality. having experienced both environments, I 100% thrive better in a big fish small pond setting.

Hi OP. I think uni is very different to school. At uni, you are going to be working largely independently. Really, the only person you are up against is yourself. All his friends will be doing different courses, so how would he even compare? Even within the same course, they’ll all be doing different modules. What I’m saying is, it’s neither here nor there what anyone else is doing at a uni. The only thing that matters is his own focus and organisation.

Also, A-levels achieved probably have very little to do with how you fare in a course, once there. A-levels are a very blunt instrument, but unis have to use something for selection purposes and that’s all there is. At any uni, your DS would have no idea who got all A* and who ‘scraped in’ with Bs. No point over-thinking these things. Once there, they are all in the same boat and starting on the same footing and the course is whatever they decide to make of it. He won’t know what other people get for their essays or exams unless he asks. It’s out of his control what other people do. Why worry about it?

All things being broadly equal, take the higher ranked institution every time. There will be students there from all walks of life and all personalities, strengths, weaknesses, confidence levels and you name it.

There are plenty of employers who make judgements about universities and do know the grades required for Durham will exceed the grades for Northumbria. If a DC had Durham grades but has traded down, some employers will wonder why the DC didn’t want anything more challenging.