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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Masters /PhD - have things changed?

53 replies

Greatauntdymphna · 11/02/2022 09:38

When I went to uni - 30+ years ago - one of my friends stayed to do a PhD and I knew 2 other people who moved to my uni to do a PhD. None of them had done a masters.
I also knew one person who moved to my uni to do a masters (who then didn't do a PhD).
When I talk to DC it seems that they are under the impression that it's hard to get to do a PhD without a masters first.
Is that now the case? (Was it always the case and I just knew some people who did things unusually?)
Or do my children have the wrong end of the stick?

OP posts:
reshetima · 14/02/2022 21:53

I totally get the points about academic careers being a vocation (though that can be an excuse for absurdly overpaid vice-chancellors to reduce academic pay and conditions over time - we're not in it for the money apparently Hmm), but what we're saying from the coal-face of academia is that most PhD graduates today haven't got any prospect for even that sort of vocational career that takes you to the lofty heights of the House of Lords or whatever. It's all very well not minding short-term contracts in your 20s, but if you're 35 and cannot get a mortgage, or contemplate starting a family, than the vocation may not be worthwhile after all.

SarahAndQuack · 14/02/2022 22:22

@reshetima

I totally get the points about academic careers being a vocation (though that can be an excuse for absurdly overpaid vice-chancellors to reduce academic pay and conditions over time - we're not in it for the money apparently Hmm), but what we're saying from the coal-face of academia is that most PhD graduates today haven't got any prospect for even that sort of vocational career that takes you to the lofty heights of the House of Lords or whatever. It's all very well not minding short-term contracts in your 20s, but if you're 35 and cannot get a mortgage, or contemplate starting a family, than the vocation may not be worthwhile after all.
Yes. Thank you! That is what I was trying, obviously very clumsily, to say.

I did a PhD with no expectation of a starry career; I just thought I would like to teach or teach and research, and I put the work in. I would continue taking short-term contracts if I had a reasonable expectation of getting them year on year, without too much unpaid time between - but this is no longer a realistic expectation in History. There are so many of us who have had really quite prestigious postdocs and PhDs who simply, literally, cannot find any teaching job in academia, including hourly paid teaching. At that point, whether it's a vocation doesn't come into it.

I think the overriding temptation if you're starting a PhD, like the OP's DC, is to think 'oh, it'll be fine, I'm sensible, I will have alternatives to an academic career in mind and won't get too invested'. But then, you land a fellowship at Oxbridge or a Leverhulme grant, or you become a co-director of a big centre, and you feel you've hit the jackpot and you'll surely get a permanent job, so it's worth it to keep trying and putting up with those short term contracts and unpaid gaps. And it should be worth it, but at the moment, it is not.

Needmoresleep · 15/02/2022 11:44

Interesting.

A PhD is a major step and I assume most think about alternatives should they run out of stream or fail to maintain the necessary interest. Four years in and DS seems to have an open mind about what next, and I think his decision to crack on was about his age when entering the job market.

Economics, especially mathematical economics, is a relatively good subject for employment. Almost all universities need someone to teach core mathematical economics courses. So he was surprised to discover that taking post-doc jobs for two or three years is not uncommon for those really wanting academia. I assume by this point most either land their academic job, or find employment elsewhere. That said, he has seen very well qualified applicants end up in surprising places, eg overseas campuses of US Universities. There is a sense that he will need to be prepared to go anywhere. Three or so years ago the job market seemed very tight, though this year was apparently better, with new PhDs landing so good positions, including in the UK.

It does, though, seem very international. DD, who studied engineering last year at Imperial, did not have a single British lecturer. And as said upthread, DS was advised that US experience was important, even if he wants to return to the UK to work.

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