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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

How would post qualification admission work for medicine/oxbridge

37 replies

bimkom · 05/01/2022 12:21

We have been discussing on another thread the likelihood that there will be post qualification admission within seven years in the context of somebody contemplating medicine as a possible career. And that made question how it is all supposed to work for medicine.

The proposed University Alliance timetable has applications being made in the week commencing 1st August, and applicants receiving their decisions by 3rd September. To balance this out, they allow for applications to 12 different courses.
For medicine, that would seem to mean that almost all medical schools will have a tripling of applicants, as one of the biggest restrictions on the number of applicants to medical schools is the one is only allowed to apply to four medical schools. If my DS had had the option of 12, he would have applied to 12, as it really doesn't matter where you study medicine, the most important thing is getting a place somewhere. He comfortably overachieved his predicted grades, so applying grades in hand would have made absolutely no difference to him. Just about every other medical applicant will feel similarly. So unless the proposal is that of those 12, only 4 can be medical schools (in which case, those determined upon medicine will actually only apply for four).

So assuming they can apply for 12, how in hell could the medical schools deal with a triple more applicants and work out who to interview, knowing that every single one of those applicants have the grades in hand to be accepted - and then interview, rank on interview, and offer in a month? How are they going to find the staff willing to give up their entire August to do this (given that the presumably teach the rest of the year, and have traditionally had holidays like everybody else in August)?

Oxbridge presumably will have a similar issue - although they do usually interview within a few weeks. But most of the students they interview, the Oxbridge interview is their only interview (unlike with medicine, where they might need to have applicants zig zagging up and down the country, assuming they want to go back to in person interviews) . And presumably Oxbridge will, regardless, have run their HATs and PATs and other entrance exams earlier in the year, so will have a better idea (probably a damn good idea) of whom they will offer interviews to by the time the grades come out (even if no formal application is received, they will know the identity and numbers who have sat their HAT and PAT etc - and who therefore will be applying if they get the grades). So they will be able to effectively draw up a list and just drop those who don't get the grades.

Unless the proposal would be that everybody uses UCAT or BMAT as their only criteria - and they will assume that each one of the eg 37,000 people who sat UCAT will apply if they get the grades, and they will simply take from the top.

Has anybody given any serious consideration to how it would work?

OP posts:
HobgoblinGold · 06/01/2022 20:50

@DorotheaDiamond

I entered medicine to care for people and a lot of my colleagues were there for the prestige. It was infuriating.

mumsneedwine · 06/01/2022 21:19

Not sure many people could afford graduate medicine, unless funding changes. And it would mean even more debt, so all that widening participation stuff going to waste as would price out middle income families.
The current system works ok - nothing is perfect and will always be stressful as more applicants than places. But at least MMIs make the application process fair ish as test lots of skills.
And using personal statement is not good as rich people pay companies to write them. Why the GMC said stop using them.
Academics seems to be a v small part of being a doctor to me. Yes you need to be clever. But it's as important to be a decent human and have the ability to empathise and listen. Hopefully the current admissions procedures are ensuring students have both.

HobgoblinGold · 06/01/2022 21:56

@mumsneedwine

Good point about funding, I know it's changed dramatically since I graduated. Widening participation scheme went to shit once they priced out so many candidates. I sincerely hope the new system does work more on empathy because there was a distinct lack of this amongst trainees when I was training.

mumsneedwine · 06/01/2022 22:03

@HobgoblinGold widening participation is now pretty darn good. Most Unis are fantastic at helping disadvantaged students and offer cash and support. My students benefit from it 😊.
Can't believe anyone would choose medicine for prestige. My DD seems to spend a lot of time dealing with guck and pus. Much easier ways to make money from what I've seen !

HobgoblinGold · 06/01/2022 22:07

@mumsneedwine

Of course there's a prestige to medicine.. I have experience of 3 medical schools throughout my training and they were no different in this department.

HobgoblinGold · 06/01/2022 22:15

Tbh - I'm a grumpy fuck most days and despise the fact that I wasted 10 years of my life in medicine. I sincerely hope it is better for trainees and I really hope the selection does select more empathetic people because it absolutely battered me emotionally during training.

HobgoblinGold · 06/01/2022 22:20

@mumsneedwine

I sincerely wish your daughter all the luck and support in her training.

bimkom · 06/01/2022 22:35

If places for medicine were allocated purely on exam results (A Level plus assessment) it would be interesting to see if this would ultimately lead to a higher drop out rate. It would no doubt add stress to the process in a different way as the academic requirements would be driven upwards.

@Decorhate as mentioned in my various posts, I grew up in a country where at that time places for medicine were allocated in exactly this way. Even when I was going to university it was one of the major criticisms of the system - not so much on the drop out rate, but that it produced academically arrogant doctors who had zero empathy.
Having left the country, I am not 100% sure how they changed it, but I believe that by and large they have moved medicine to graduate entry (and law too).
But I believe that does again tend to put off disadvantaged students. It is daunting enough to be taking on five years of student loans, but seven or eight? To not be in the workforce until then? And the reality is that it is difficult to survive on the loans provided - the system tends to assume a fair bit of parental support as well, and a lot of parents who are on the border might baulk at that too. Three years for one child and eight for another?

OP posts:
Dutchdoctor · 07/01/2022 17:14

Despite my (changed) name I have worked in the UK for decades. I read earlier on here that in the Netherlands academic perfomance determined selection. Not sure when that was, but anyway, when I was applying for med school in the Netherlands (1980s) it was based on a lottery system.

Secondary schools were already "streamed" so if you passed the exams (7 subjects and which had to include certain subjects for med school) you were considered academic enough to go to med school. The higher the grades, the higher the changes you had and I seem to remember if you had worked in certain jobs beforehand you also got a higher chance.

The "lottery ticket" was already given out in Jan time; the lower the number the better but not till results day would you know whether it was low enough (you were placed in categories as per grades; the lowest grades category had eg 10% admission while the highest grades category 50%. I really don't remeber exact numbers though.

Things have changed a lot since though.

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 25/02/2022 13:31

It will come up again in a few years' time, though. For now it has been "deprioritised" (sadly, we are ruled by people who use words like that).

There's a post about it by the UCAS Director of Strategy, Policy & Public Affairs on the Higher Education Policy Institute (HEPI) blog today, for anyone who can't access the Times article behind its paywall:

www.hepi.ac.uk/2022/02/25/improving-opportunity-for-students-regardless-of-background-will-happen-regardless-of-post-qualification-admissions/

titchy · 25/02/2022 16:02

It'll almost certainly come up again in a few years, and almost as certainly be pushed into the long grass again. Grin

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