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Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Economics offers: take a gap year because so competitive?

52 replies

CaliforniaDrumming · 09/12/2021 19:39

I am unfamiliar with the British uni system, so excuse any stupid questions. DS applied for Economics at Cambridge, LSE, UCL, Warwick and Notts. He has perfect grades at GCSE , predicted AAAA at A level, plus predicted A in Further Maths. Two rejections from Cambridge ( expected) and LSE. One offer from Notts which he is not keen on. He's very despondent because he thinks he may not make it into Warwick or UCL. I am not sure his PS was great because he missed out on work experience thanks to Covid.

I am wondering if it is extra competitive this year because of deferred entries due to Covid, and whether it will help him to take a gap year and reapply with achieved grades and more work experience. Also grade inflation due to Covid. I know it's premature as he has not yet been rejected by Warwick or UCL but would like to have a plan in the bag to reassure him. He has worked like a dog.

I might add that he is an international student.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 10/12/2021 10:30

@CaliforniaDrumming. I have posted the same, probably every year. The level of competition came as a big surprise to us, and clearly to others.

If he wants to go on to economic research (lots of jobs within banks and consultancies as well as the public sector or academia) and he has a maths bent, he should consider a reapplication rather than accept an alternative course first time round.

It will be easier with achieved grades, and much of the bulge problem should be over. However do not take silence from UCL and Warwick as rejection. It is actually a positive. Both will probably be using a gathered field approach. They reject and accept some immediately, but will hold onto the rest until all the applications are in in January. (And some start withdrawing after receiving a Cambridge offer.) They then start accepting some and rejecting some as they try to match offers to available places. Many will not hear until March. (DS got two of his rejections then as well.)

If he is interested in mathematical economics he might look at various maths with econ courses, and the levels of competition. (LSE give offer rates.) Certainly DS, who chose some sort of maths as his outside option, essential did the same first year as some of those in the maths department. He then opted to graduate in EME alongside some who had started in the maths department.

Almost all of DS's maths orientated peers ended up taking a Masters, so you could also look at the sorts of first degrees, MSc courses are looking for. (Normally the more maths the better, so the fifth option might be chosen to reflect this. Econometrics at Bristol perhaps, though Nottingham is also a good University.)

DS believes that his personal statement was not strong enough. Your DS could do things like look out for public lectures from places like the LSE that he could watch on-line, or follow academics in the areas that interest him most on Twitter as they will be tweeting and retweeting relevant stuff, as well as further reading around.

Then read everything you can find on University websites about the sort of applicant they are looking for, imagining that the first read is by junior admissions staff who have a score sheet with which to mark them by. So follow the University guidance making sure you have covered each desirable/required attribute and evidenced it.

DS is now in the US studying for a fully funded PhD in a well regarded University. He was also offered a couple of Research Assistant jobs, including one at Princeton. His peers seem to have done equally well and he now has a really good, and international, network.

The waiting and uncertainty was awful. But there are lots of ways to get to the same place if you have the aptitude and are willing to put in the effort. And in retrospect I am glad that this early experience of "rejection" happened when he was at home and we were able to support him. He has had plenty of rejections since, and will have more in the future. Ambition is a good thing, but it does bring the risk of rejection and there is a need to balance aspiration with a realistic Plan B, be it reapplication or accepting his fifth choice.

Good luck!

Xenia · 10/12/2021 12:27

He sounds like a top candidate and it feels unfair he has not got in the offers he wants. None of my 5 children tried Oxbridge but 3 went to Bristol, one Nottingham (and one who missed his Exeter grades went to Reading). 4 are lawyers or post grad law students. 3 did a BA and 2 a BSc.

Most people do not employ anyone to help with a PS. My children's schools did check them and needed first draft by July so time to check and do a few drafts.

Some of my 5 graduate children did an easier to get into subject - ancient history to get into a better university including a lawyer one who went to Bristol. Economics is very competitive. 4 of my children did economics in the sixth form, but none did it at university not even the two with BSc (geog) and it is very interesting subject. My daughter who did not get offers at Durham or Bristol a good while back went to Nottingham and is also now a lawyer in London - in my view she didn't get in to the other places because of choosing difficult science A levels but she was equally good at GCSE at both sides - arts and sciences and thought sciences ones and economics would keep more options open including medicine (she did chemistry, physics, geog and economics in lower sixth and AS).

It may be worth considering a gap year rather than Nottingham (not that there is anything particularly wrong with Nottingham and indeed a fair number of big law firms recruit people from there - the list here is similar for hirings for most of the higher paid city and accountancy jobs www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019

MarchingFrogs · 10/12/2021 12:45

In recent years (going on multiple posts on TSR), LSE notoriously seem really to want to think that the applicant is only applying there and so if the PS isn't this-subject-specifically-as-presented-at-LSE orientated, this may be an issue. When I applied (and was offered and accepted a place), in the early 1980s, not only was the subject I applied for - Philosophy - not exactly the same as what I applied for elsewhere, but they were happy to let me change cometely when I actually started there. But hey ho, neither of the degrees in question was pure Economics, which may have been a different kettle of fish even then.

LSE tends to wait until the last possible minute to issue responses in many cases (also see relevant threads on TSR).

Warwick, also in recent years, tends to take its time making offers for some subjects (seemingly at random), so not having heard from there yet really isn't in itself anything to be concerned about.

MarchingFrogs · 10/12/2021 12:48

As for paying someone to help with the PS, not in our world, but then I'm a very negligent mother and for all I know, our three were the only ones at their respective years whose parents didn't do this. I doubt it though.

Gardenia22 · 10/12/2021 13:12

Just to confirm what others have said. No work experience is needed, but yes I think with the huge grade inflation over the past two years Unis are being more cautious with offers.

And no, a personal statement shouldn't be written by a 'counsellor' it should be a 'personal' statement.

I would take the Nottingham offer personally

Xenia · 10/12/2021 13:32

In fact one of my twins' personal statement for geography was entirely written by him (would not let us see it until done) and it was so specific to him and good and both his Head and I thought it was good. It showed all kinds of things that meant he liked his subject. He and his twin however both got Bristol and Durham offers ( 2017 entry before covid and in the days of AS levels) so the PS I don't think really made a vast difference and his twin got in with a more normal/boring one.

thing47 · 10/12/2021 14:34

@CaliforniaDrumming

May I ask if people hire counsellors to help them prepare personal statements here in the UK? I know it's a thing in the US. We didn't want to go down that route to be honest. He wrote his PS entirely by himself, with a few tips from teachers.
Not only is it not a thing, I have never even heard of this!

Maybe I'm a negligent mother too Smile

CraftyGin · 10/12/2021 14:41

@CaliforniaDrumming

I am unfamiliar with the British uni system, so excuse any stupid questions. DS applied for Economics at Cambridge, LSE, UCL, Warwick and Notts. He has perfect grades at GCSE , predicted AAAA at A level, plus predicted A in Further Maths. Two rejections from Cambridge ( expected) and LSE. One offer from Notts which he is not keen on. He's very despondent because he thinks he may not make it into Warwick or UCL. I am not sure his PS was great because he missed out on work experience thanks to Covid.

I am wondering if it is extra competitive this year because of deferred entries due to Covid, and whether it will help him to take a gap year and reapply with achieved grades and more work experience. Also grade inflation due to Covid. I know it's premature as he has not yet been rejected by Warwick or UCL but would like to have a plan in the bag to reassure him. He has worked like a dog.

I might add that he is an international student.

He has applied to places with a very narrow range of offers, so if one turns him down, it's not a surprise for others to do the same.

You do see lots of stories over the years of 5A* students receiving no offers. It's not to do with their grades, but their personal statement or school reference.

Universities love international students - bigger fees.

Economics does not require work experience, but a lot of reading around the subject is good in order to communicate passion. You can't use Covid to excuse for this.

My recommendation is to see what happens with the places you haven't heard from yet, and be reassured that Nottingham is a top notch place.

If he wants to reapply next year, then that's not a bad thing either.

Just don't use the system/Covid to make excuses.

CaliforniaDrumming · 10/12/2021 15:16

Many thanks for all the very useful and lovely replies! I have a clearer plan for what to suggest to DS and agree there are other routes to get where he wants to go.

He does read a lot around Economics, but I am not qualified to judge if he reads the right thing or mentioned them in the right way. His teachers seem to think so. DH and I had no input.

Has very good school references. Glad to know no one cares about work ex.

I meant "consultant" rather than counsellor- pandemic brain!-but glad to hear that no one one uses them in the UK for a PS. I don't want to go down that route.

Not given up hope of Warwick or UCL but adjusting expectations! He was not keen on the Scottish unis, otherwise we would have put them in. I think he would prefer Notts over them anyway ( better weather and gorgeous campus).

OP posts:
CraftyGin · 10/12/2021 15:50

There's a lot to be said for Scottish universities.

CaliforniaDrumming · 16/12/2021 21:59

Wanted to update here: DS received an offer from Warwick. He is thrilled and so are we! Really grateful for all your advice on this thread. I think I probably got panicky. The fact is that he has worked very hard over the last 4 years sweating away at Further Maths, and I didn't want him to get the message that hard work is of no use.

Not heard from UCL but DS is happy with Warwick: its reputation for econometrics, the campus, and its proximity to London.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 16/12/2021 22:28

Congratulations to your son. He should be rightly proud of himself. Warwick will get him to exactly the same place as the other Universities he applied to, and has the advantage of being a campus, which many students enjoy, even if that had not what they though they had wanted.

TractorAndHeadphones · 16/12/2021 22:54

Warwick is very well regarded I have many friends from there all In good Graduate jobs.
Well done

mynameisnotmichaelcaine · 17/12/2021 06:50

@CaliforniaDrumming My DD's friend who got straight 9s at GCSE and is predicted straight A*s in his four A-Levels at a state comprehensive didn't get an interview for Cambridge Economics. It's usually extremely competitive - this year it is off the scale.

Silkieschickens · 17/12/2021 07:00

Congrats to your DS, I read Economics and work as an Economist. Warwick is very well regarded especially for econometrics / mathematical economics.

jgw1 · 17/12/2021 07:10

@DaftVader42

There’s something going on with ucas this year. I think (not sure) , that normally you can change your selected unis for up to 14 days after submission. This year , I think you can change up to the deadline day even if you’ve had a rejection. So, might be worth your DC seeing if he can change one that he’s been rejected from, and substitute for another one he’d consider ?
UCAS did briefly say this, but when it was pointed out to them by universities and schools what that meant in practice they reverted to the previous policy.
jgw1 · 17/12/2021 07:15

@Needmoresleep

Economics at Cambridge, Warwick, LSE and UCL is always competitive. DS was applying eight years ago and it was the same then.

The advice he received was to apply to all four courses and be happy if he got one. In the end, and he was applying with 5 Alevels including 4xA* predictions, he got one…at the end of March and three rejections. If the offer had not come through he would have reapplied with achieved grades. One of his classmates did this and got Cambridge, though not LSE, second time round.

As to whether it is harder this year. Probably, in that there has been a lot of grade inflation. There are almost certainly fewer EU students, but my guess is that the number of international applicants will have risen. First because of the various problems around access to the US, and perhaps a sense that post Brexit, Britain will be more open to international markets and international labour.

So probably harder, but it was always hard.

It can be really difficult, especially for young people who have never faced rejection before.

.

More applications per place are expected in 2022 than there were in 2020, making it harder, but of this is because there are more 18 year olds in the UK.
But since 2012 there has been a big increase in the number of university places so actually the competition for places is not that different from 8 years ago.
jgw1 · 17/12/2021 07:24

@CaliforniaDrumming

I am unfamiliar with the British uni system, so excuse any stupid questions. DS applied for Economics at Cambridge, LSE, UCL, Warwick and Notts. He has perfect grades at GCSE , predicted AAAA at A level, plus predicted A in Further Maths. Two rejections from Cambridge ( expected) and LSE. One offer from Notts which he is not keen on. He's very despondent because he thinks he may not make it into Warwick or UCL. I am not sure his PS was great because he missed out on work experience thanks to Covid.

I am wondering if it is extra competitive this year because of deferred entries due to Covid, and whether it will help him to take a gap year and reapply with achieved grades and more work experience. Also grade inflation due to Covid. I know it's premature as he has not yet been rejected by Warwick or UCL but would like to have a plan in the bag to reassure him. He has worked like a dog.

I might add that he is an international student.

Having supported 100s of students who have applied to LSE over the years, I am very puzzled by the LSE rejection.
LSE even before the pandemic did not consider applications before the equal consideration deadline (26th Jan 6pm) and have typically been among the slowest to make offers or reject students.
I have never known them to reject (or make an offer) so soon.
What A-level subjects is your DS studying?

Many overseas applicants pay agents/counsellors to help them navigate the UK (and other) university admissions systems. Some of them are very good, others (many?) are worse than useless.

Needmoresleep · 17/12/2021 07:27

because there are more 18 year olds in the UK does not work as an argument at somewhere like the LSE where overall approx 50% of UGs were overseas rather than home, and amongst the”home” students 50% were EU rather than UK. And that is before you start looking at courses. Economics has a particularly strong appeal to international students.

On DS’ degree, one third were UK, on his Masters he was the only Brit out of 39.

London (UCL and LSE) will have a relatively greater appeal to international as opposed to strong UK applicants, so I would expect a higher proportion of UK students at Warwick and Cambridge. But all will have a significant number of overseas students.

jgw1 · 17/12/2021 07:44

@Needmoresleep

because there are more 18 year olds in the UK does not work as an argument at somewhere like the LSE where overall approx 50% of UGs were overseas rather than home, and amongst the”home” students 50% were EU rather than UK. And that is before you start looking at courses. Economics has a particularly strong appeal to international students.

On DS’ degree, one third were UK, on his Masters he was the only Brit out of 39.

London (UCL and LSE) will have a relatively greater appeal to international as opposed to strong UK applicants, so I would expect a higher proportion of UK students at Warwick and Cambridge. But all will have a significant number of overseas students.

Overall in 2021 there were 682010 applicants of those 102,000 were overseas and not from the EU, and a further 28,400 where from the EU. As you note some institutions have a much higher proportion of overseas applicants than that. That may be for LSE because UK students are not so bothered about the brand name of the university and consider more the student experience, which is consistently poor at LSE.

3.2% of applicants in 2021 did so for a deferred place. Whilst that represents the largest ever number of deferred places, it is a smaller proportion of the applicant pool than it was in 2012 and is not a large enough number to have a significant impact this year.

Needmoresleep · 17/12/2021 07:56

But that is not what OP was asking. Most Universities will give offers to qualified applicants. Many do not even read the PS.

However for a small number of economics courses the picture is very different and they are regularly rejecting students with A* predictions.

A lot of these applicants, whether UK or overseas will be very course focussed. Student experience is very subjective. DS was very happy somewhere, LSE, where his peers whether from the UK or elsewhere shared his passion for economics. A surprising proportion of his friendship group have gone on to PHDs and he probably knows people at every major economics department in the US. If an applicant has ambitions to carry on to research, either academic or in a policy unit or a bank, it is worth prioritising course over ‘student satisfaction’.

edmundtrebus · 17/12/2021 07:57

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CaliforniaDrumming · 17/12/2021 10:06

@jgw1 thanks for your input. DS' A levels were Maths, Further Maths, Economics and Physics. Predicted A* for all. Rejections from LSE appear to have been early this year.

Let me just say though that after posting on here, I went on to The Student Room and realised there were international applicants with 6 A levels and 45/45 on the IB who had applied to the LSE! We all think our DC deserve to get in everywhere, but that was probably rather arrogant of me. I didn't realise the level of competition, egged on a bit by DS 's teachers who seemed to think he was LSE level.

We are not giving LSE another thought and moving on to get excited about Warwick:) DS is very sporty and the idea of a campus uni is appealing as well. Hopefully he can play some sport. He is also glad to get better accomodation than he would have had in London.

OP posts:
poetryandwine · 17/12/2021 10:43

OP,

Congratulations to your DS. It sounds like Warwick will be a great fit for him.

I want to reply first to comments and questions about bringing in help for the PS, based on my experience as a former Admissions Tutor in what I have described as a very good but not super elite RG STEM School. We officially discarded use of the PS in decision making because of the unfair advantage this offered to those who could afford it. But we would read the PS before interview, to ground our talks with the candidates. After the first fifty or so you develop a strong belief that you can tell when a pupil has mainly written their own statement and when they have had a lot of help.

Of course it is impossible to test this statement objectively except in the extreme case when the candidate seems unfamiliar with the material in their own PS. Not unheard of.

OTOH it is a real pleasure to come across a well written statement that is very clearly written in the applicant's own voice. Observation suggests that this is confidence building at interview, also.

I am by no means advising against taking advice more broadly on suitable uni and degree programme choices for a particular student, the UK applications process, how the financial side works, etc.

I had an idea last night for an alternative route into an Economics degree from one of the elite Schools under discussion here for highly maths-able students who are not accepted as undergraduates which I will post below. I already know it works for STEM students who want to transition to Finance, Banking etc.

poetryandwine · 17/12/2021 11:31

Hi, everyone -

This is directed towards anyone reading who may be shocked at how brutal admissions to the top Schools of Economics in the UK is currently. If your DC are determined on a degree from such a School - and a number of recent posts here and on other threads suggest that for certain careers, elite employers look primarily to these Schools to fill entry level jobs, although I have no personal knowledge of the situation - but do not gain admission, here is an alternative to consider. I thank @Needmoresleep for her post discussing the big picture, which triggered this.

Viable candidates to the Schools of Economics at Cambridge, LSE, Warwick and (perhaps to a lesser extent, I am not sure) UCL should have an excellent Maths background. Most are getting A at Maths and many are excelling at FM. A number also seem to be doing a science. The alternative pathway is to do a Maths, Computing or scientific first* degree, perhaps taking some Economics as optional modules to show interest.

Good candidates for elite Schools of Economics are very strong candidates for strong Maths, Computing and Science schools. The catch is the PS, which will have been orientated to Econ and will likely rule them out of Oxbridge and perhaps a few other places. Many 'upper RG' Schools will be happy to have them if their applications are exceptionally strong relative to entry requirements.

Obviously, aim for a 1st class degree, seek good internship/training opportunities and get to know at least three Year 2/early Year 3 lecturers rather than just being a warm body in their classrooms (or worse, remotely). This is so the student can get strong referee letters.
(One from the personal tutor if there is any rapport at all, as there usually is; a pool of three from which to choose one or two.) Students tend to underestimate their importance.

Now the student is in a strong position to apply for the two year conversion MSc at Cambridge (where Y1 is an Advanced Dip) or LSE, and a good position to apply for the one year MSc at UCL. All in Economics.

This is a longer pathway, but also a highly respected one. Economists love quantitative and advanced computer ability. With this pathway one has the MSc in Econ from an elite institution plus advanced quantitative/analytical training. Excellent STEM students do it all the time.

I have not looked for studies and I suspect numbers are small overall, but two or three of my own personal tutees in STEM took this pathway (or a very similar one) every year. They were mainly international and I suspect they came to us in the first place because they had not got onto these elite courses as undergraduates. It seemed to work well.