Moving to state sixth form the get into Oxbridge

[shreddies]

My cousin is planning to move her dds from private to state school for sixth form because she feels it will give them a better chance of getting into Oxbridge. She and her husband both went and this is very important to them.

One of the schools she is looking at has a pretty good sixth form but is a big mixed comprehensive with poor gcse results. It is on Bristol's list of aspiring schools where contextual offers are made, I assume Oxford and Cambridge use the same/similar data.

www.bristol.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/entry-requirements-qualifications/contextual-offers/

Leaving aside what I personally think of this, is this likely to be successful?

I can't imagine universities have time to dig down and spot that the high gcse grades come from an expensive private school, so I suspect they will be taken at face value?

@Jacaranda75

What a dick move! They just need to accept that their DD is not bright enough for Oxbridge.

Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. Plenty of kids who are bright enough don't get a place. It seems unlikely the parents are being helpful to her in any way by this manoeuvring.

As the likeliest outcome for any applicant is that they don't get an offer, how the hell is this kid going to feel if she doesn't get one? Of course, she may quite reasonably rebel against her parents desire for a mini-me.

@beeswain I think it’s also about the decision to admit you, not just interview. For example I did the mitigating circumstances form and still got in after missing my offer and I suspect that had something to do with it.

WRT what OP’s cousin is suggesting I do know people who did move from private to state but in some cases it is legitimate, for example moving to a state sixth form college as these are usually able to offer more subjects than sixth forms attached to schools.

@shreddies maybe get your cousin to look at this

www.merton.ox.ac.uk/undergraduate/admissions-feedback for feedback on how decisions are made.

This www.timeshighereducation.com/alan-rusbridger-lifting-lid-oxford-admissions is a bit old now, but again very interesting reading.

These are both Oxford specific, as my ds was interested we did a lot of research and as a pp said up thread, Oxford interview far less that Cambridge, only about a 1/3 of applicants. My impression is because they have a longer history of admissions tests and associated data. I have no idea about Cambridge processes.

These are both Oxford specific, as my ds was interested we did a lot of research and as a pp said up thread, Oxford interview far less that Cambridge, only about a 1/3 of applicants. My impression is because they have a longer history of admissions tests and associated data. I have no idea about Cambridge processes.

One reason for the lower proportions of interviews at Oxford may be because it seems to be a lengthier process, spanning two or more days and a couple of different colleges. Cambridge is more typically two interviews and sometimes an extra test on one day.

Some of this could change now they are doing interviews online, I suppose. While obviously that's a response to covid and may have downsides, hopefully it will help in the efforts to increase access. Just getting to the interviews from other parts of the country can be an extra barrier.

Their elder dd is perfectly bright enough to get in, but she's no amazing genius. She does have that uber confidence that comes from being in a wealthy, educated family and having always had grown ups listen to her opinions. (She's actually very nice).

How do you think that child is going to feel being moved?

It doesn't work. Neither Oxford nor Cambridge will give leeway to a privately educated pupil who goes to a state sixth form. The benefits (and rightly so!) of allowances being made for state school pupils are for those who went to schools without a track record of Oxbridge, so from a disadvantaged background. Amazingly, Oxbridge admissions staff are intelligent and see through this sort of ploy.

I'm pretty sure Oxbridge look at the school GCSEs were taken. I'm sure I read that on their application website.

And the private school, if it's academically good, might push students a little more and she'll achieve better grades?

I can't imagine universities have time to dig down and spot that the high gcse grades come from an expensive private school, so I suspect they will be taken at face value?

I'm sure they can easily 'dig down'!

Yep, they don't have to hire private detectives. The GCSE school is on the application form!

@blubells

I can't imagine universities have time to dig down and spot that the high gcse grades come from an expensive private school, so I suspect they will be taken at face value?

I'm sure they can easily 'dig down'!

Of course they can, it's all easily accessible on the DofE website. And they will have their own historic admissions data

I did wonder if that was the case. It works in both the university and the school's favour doesn't it.*

This view seems to suggest that universities would actually prefer the private school kids and are just being forced to broaden their admissions reluctantly or something, or that private school kids are actually a better fit/would do better, and thus it's a secretly good thing if there's a loophole to get them in!!

Actually I think many (most? I can't speak for all of them) colleges are the opposite, and do quite genuinely care about diversity, finding applicants who are suited to the college but might be from a more deprived background, being inclusive of non-traditional students, etc. They want the students who will thrive best under the sort of teaching system that they can offer, and this doesn't mean private school kids by any stretch of the imagination. They want intelligent, resourceful, resilient students who have potential. It isn't always easy to get the right students to apply, and sometimes the disadvantage is great enough in the earlier years that the grades/skills etc aren't there by A-level to make it possible, but I think they genuinely want to find the best students, and it's not in the college's interests to get private school students in by the back door by pretending they were state-educated to get their stats to look better.

I wonder if the private-state combination is more likely to deliver candidates comfortable with the aspiration of Oxbridge but with the good skills acquired in a state setting? Because the biggest barrier to many kids who COULD get into Oxbridge actually going there is them thinking of themselves as possibles, and applying.

Do the kids even want to go to Oxbridge? In my experience, that's the biggest factor determining a successful application! They need to want to go - not just because it's "Oxbridge", but because they love and are passionate about their subject and genuinely want to study it in more depth.

Oxford does not make contextual offers. They do take into account school exam performance, home postcode, % free school meals when making decisions about whether to interview (especially) and possibly whether to offer. Just being a state school alone is not enough. Candidates from high performing state schools will rank as just as advantaged as from an independent school. Also the GCSE results will be compared to the school they did their GCSEs at, not their current school.

So yes, it could mean that the application (if it is otherwise the same) would be more likely to lead to an interview and place. But it may not. And obviously the A-level grades and interview preparation that the receive may not be as good.

I certainly wouldn't choose to switch for that reason alone!!

I can't imagine universities have time to dig down and spot that the high gcse grades come from an expensive private school, so I suspect they will be taken at face value?

I'm doing admissions. The data on how the candidate did relative to their GCSE school is right there in the spreadsheet summarizing all their application data.

As somebody who went to Oxford having grown up on a council estate, free school meals, parents factory workers, state schools (i.e genuinely from a less affluent background)and working my @rse off to get a place despite the odds stacked against me this kind of attitude disgusts me. Just gross.

Also, information on this will date very quickly.

20 years ago it was true that Oxford took a fairly crude state v private approach. Now it distinguishes very finely across different state schools, looks at both GCSE school and A-level school, and also home post codes. And the data is all there in front of us - no digging required.

Oxbridge may look at contact but its not the same as contextual offers. Oxbridge DO NOT make contextual offers. If you get an offer from Oxford or Cambridge it will be a standard offer. Two very different things.
Quite right that they should look at context. But they def do not give contextual offers.

context not contact!

The 'contextual' measure introduced by Cambridge in the last few years was along the lines of prioritising applicants with low polar/acorn type metrics for spare places after results, for those who hadn't had an offer but who had made the typical required grades, instead of their 'summer pool'. That initiative was probably derailed by the assessed grades causing far fewer offer holders than expected to not meet their offers.

Both the Oxford and Cambridge approaches are, I think, intended to avoid the problem of admitting students who through no fault of their own simply haven't had good enough secondary education to be able to cope with the course.

What do the children concerned want?

The issue that is not covered is that of whether it is a good thing to move for sixth form at all.

DD did, within the private sector, because on balance it was the right thing for her. However this was despite strong advice that staying put is often better academically and in terms of University applications.

Those that stay on will be better placed to take on school leadership roles etc. They won't have their education disrupted by getting to know new classmates and teachers. As importantly schools will be writing references for pupils they have known for almost six years, not ones they have known for one.

It also depends on the extent to which you see Oxbridge as the be all and end all. If you don't, the decision should really be able the school which offers the better quality of teaching and wider experience.

Candidates from high performing state schools will rank as just as advantaged as from an independent school.

So what matters is not whether a school is private or not, but how it performs academically?

In other words a top performing pupil coming from a poorly performing (independent or state) school will be considered more favourably?