MFL - thoughts on

[queenrep]

Has anyone got any information/advice about MFL or similar degrees at:

UCL
KCL
QMUL
RHUL

DS has visited and spoken to them all but just wondering if anyone has any direct experience? He is particularly interested in the language side of MFL degrees as opposed to literature. Birkbeck also a possibility as they do the 2 languages he's interested in.

Why is there a need to do more than 2 languages?

My DD is not planning on it (but who knows, may change her mind), but, if a student has already achieved a high level of competency at A level in one/two, then why can you not see the appeal? If they have a natural aptitude to language learning and keen to widen cultural knowledge beyond the 2, then there is potentially a wider market of employment open to them. Some students may wish to actually use their language skills in an international business context, not just convert to law or similar where their language/s are placed in early retirement. I have no idea why it’s believed that employers won’t value multiple languages skills. My international co-workers from Belgium, Switzerland, Malta etc were much in demand. The Brits remained envious of them.

Just as an aside, students do also need to be flexible with alternatives to the traditional placement years, whether that be 100% in one country, 50/50 split across two etc, in case they are pulled due to future travel restrictions and covid. This unfortunately is still affecting many language students (as well as other subjects). So alternatives such as summer internships and language schools to offset, or worse case any UK immersion opportunities, so not to not derail their development, as disappointing as not going overseas may be.

I’d strongly dissuade him from London if you’re not here already. It’s £££ and lots of students live at home or are from overseas so it’s really hard to find your tribe.
I’m a Londoner and moved here many years ago for mfl University and had a typical undergraduate experience, halls, flatshare year abroad etc.

Why is there a need to do more than 2 languages? It makes the year abroad an issue. Definitely 2 languages but 3 proves nothing to employers. Unless they need 4 languages of course. But few do. It’s better to do 2 and do those in depth.

Well, there's a Christmas holiday project for us all, then. Divvi up between us the list of all universities that allow students to stiudy more than two MFL and write and tell them that they should stop it. Now..

I agree with Ealingwestmum. I don’t know which “employers” Tigerorfizz is talking about,p (engineering consultancies?) but international careers often expect employees to have several languages, or be will8ng to pick up new one up quickly.

My experience was 3 months as the norm for European languages though you got more for others. Probably 6 months for Russian, 9 for Arabic and 24 for something tonal like Thai or Vietnamese.

I would have thought the more languages, the better, though obviously the demands on a student will depend on how different the languages are. Two Romance languages ought to be pretty straightforward. A Germanic or Slavic language and a Romance one would be a bit more tricky. So much depends on aptitude. I don’t have much and had to work hard but still managed to pick up 4 MFL including an Asian one. I knew someone with extraordinary aptitude who seemed to learn a language simply by listening. She was in her late 20s but already had eight languages and keen to learn more.

MFL grads are not particularly sought after. Grads with decent skills are. What jobs actively ask for numerous languages? Very few I think. Most MFL grads simply do not use them all snd even if they teach, it’s unusual to teach more than 2. The point being missed is that employers don’t purely select on languages acquired. Grad jobs often want more than this and will set selection tests accordingly. A huge number of languages is rarely a test.

Also picking up a language really isn’t the same as a degree in it. There are, of course, courses that offer 3 MFL, so @MarchingFrogs, you can cut out the snide remarks! Oxford allows 2 MFLs. They set the standard and don’t offer 3, 4 or 8. It’s due to depth of study beyond language acquisition.

Cambridge is 2 MFL too but there’s a possibility of doing an introductory course in another language. It is not part of the year abroad. Nor is it studied in the same delta as the other two.

I don’t usually have the energy to respond to your assumptive posts Tizerorfizz, such as who claimed a MFL is ONLY about languages other than OP stating their DS didn’t want too literature heavy?

But I’m sure employers will be thanking you for putting it out there that MFL grads are not sought after, as apparently they have less decent skills than, who, other humanity or STEM graduates?

You do talk rubbish. And just because your own daughter studied her A Level languages only at UG because ab initio would have been too hard, doesn’t make every student believe the same. Some students like a challenge. Even some non-native. I really hate making a post personal, but all your posts, past and present are only based on your own personal.

As suggested above. I am not a natural linguist but have worked in a job, indeed jobs, where languages were required.

I have also known people who say, converted their MFL degrees into careers in international patent law, internal audit for a multi national etc. My experience is that the first MFL is the hardest, and after that additional languages become easier. Your brain is somehow geared up, and you know how you learn. (Musical people seem better able to learn aurally. I needed both graft and immersion.) The younger you are, the easier it is.

My instinct is that an international employer seeking staff who either have languages, or who may be required to acquire languages, would be more interested in someone who has, say, an ab initio non European language alongside two A level subject languages. Language is expression and it is near impossible to pick up a language without knowing a lot about attitudes and culture, plus it shows an interest in other regions in the world.

I really don't understand the idea that "employers" are less interested in those with MFL degrees. Like other "generalists" who may need to pick up an accounting or law or whatever qualification, but banks, management consultancies etc will surely then be more interested in applicants who have more strings to their bow. Plus, and not to be underestimated, many colleagues in international firms will be at least bi-lingual if not multi-lingual. Inevitably the monolingual Brit who is unable to order in French when on a business trip to Brussels is perceived as less educated.

For those with DC looking for what industry sectors and types of roles have a required/desired language requisite, LinkedIn is a good place to start. It is a shame for young people to be put off MFL degrees when they are in decline in this country. Value is placed on them, in context with a whole host of other transferable skills gained from humanity degrees. Soft skills are still very much in demand, which can lead to interesting opportunities for those who can use them effectively.

Actually my experience is that native English speakers who also speak another language are particularly valuable in an international business context -- English is the major international language so native written fluency especially is v valuable, but Brits who speak another language fluently are seen as quite special because it's just not that common. I am often assumed to be Dutch or German in France because I speak decent French (a bit of a Dutch/German accent in French is not that different from a bit of an English one).

I totally agree that language learning speed/ability is cumulative. You will lose a language that you don't use but the experience of learning it still speeds up the next one.

@ealingwestmum
Good grief! Doesn’t everyone speak from person experience on these threads. @kalidasa started her thread with exactly that comment.

I strongly believe in MFL degrees. However earnings potential are not amazing unless you have other aspects in your personality and skill set to get that amazing job in the first place! Anyway. That’s it but I’m one of the few posting here whose DC has actuality done a MFL degree instead of talking about generalities of people they know. I’ll leave it there.

Doesn’t everyone speak from person experience on these threads.

Actually quite a few on these threads (and I am talking about HE threads in general) have sector knowledge and speak through that lens, rather than just their offsprings' and friends' experiences.

My international co-workers from Belgium, Switzerland, Malta etc were much in demand. The Brits remained envious of them.

Most Europeans speak several languages and children learn at least two foreign languages in school.

By learning languages throughout childhood these young multilingual speakers don't 'need' to study languages at University, they study economics, engineering or business, often abroad.

Good grief! Doesn’t everyone speak from person experience on these threads

Of course it's natural for those who have it, do. And your contributions are as valid as the next person's. But they are nevertheless, anecdotal, and it becomes concerning when a poster takes up a Captain of Industry stance. With statements of how sectors see MFL students as weak, which is just not true.

Unless a student is taking a vocational degree, and even then, projected earnings are only that, all UG students are subject to jumping hurdles to secure first rung of ladder posts. Earnings are not straight line, therefore to discount potential future earnings at this stage of their career is not helpful, and none of us are insightful enough to see where their degrees may take them.

By learning languages throughout childhood these young multilingual speakers don't 'need' to study languages at University, they study economics, engineering or business, often abroad

Totally agree Gardenia22. many of my colleagues were ex Bocconi type individuals. Quite intimidating at first, but they were ultimately lovely, even if we felt like cultural peasants in comparison! But then there were lots of US peers too, and we felt much better

That's true @Gardenia22 though it's also true that in most of the world UG degrees are less specialised than in the UK anyway, and it is pretty common to have to continue formally studying one language, at least, right to the end of a degree even if you don't go abroad and your "main" area of study is something else. My DH had to do some English throughout his politics/economics degree for instance.

I’m one of the few posting here whose DC has actuality done a MFL degree instead of talking about generalities of people they know. I’ll leave it there.

TizerorFizz, you claim knowledge on such a wide range of Higher Education subjects but rarely give detail, though recently and usefully you confirmed on another post that you are involved in graduate engineering recruitment and thus well placed to talk about that.

For many people seeking advice it is useful to know the basis on which advice is given. The good thing about this board is that there is a range of experience, both personally or through our children. However by the same token this experience is bound to be limited. It would be useful to know what your experience is.

For example I gained an Institute of Linguists qualification that was the equivalent to a degree in an Asian language (and similar qualifications in French and German which equated to completing the first year of a MFL degree) but have never studied a language academically. You say there is a big different. I have no way of knowing. Equally I ensured that both DC had opportunities to learn MFL through exposure (I am quite sceptical about GCSE language teaching) and DD ended up pretty fluent in French, to the extent that during her gap year ski season she was often called upon to translate rather than those with better and more formal qualifications.

However I think, from reading your posts, you are discounting my experience of living and working abroad on the basis that I don't know much about studying language at University. When actually all I was doing was responding to a comment of yours and suggesting that many international employers do like Brits who have a second, third or fourth language. And that there is benefit in picking up an additional language if you can and have the capacity.

It would be useful to know:

1. Do you have a second language?
2. When recruiting engineers do you give credit to language skills? (FWIW my English BIL is a Mandarin speaking engineer and this almost certainly helped when being recruited by an international consultancy.)
3. When did you DD study MFL and did she ever attempt to work in a field that would have used her languages. (I am assuming that this is not the DD who started at Bristol over a decade ago and then went straight into English law.) If it is how does her experience inform your rather strong views?
4. (Just because I am curious.) What did you actually study and where?

I agree with other posters that MFL alone is not sufficient. However I know people who have been recruited after either joint degrees or post graduate professional qualifications. That is true also for most generalists, expect that MFL graduates have the advantage of additional language skills. Alternatively, if you want an international career, you do it the other way round and take a more obviously vocationally orientated degree and then aim to pick up a language or two in parallel (via external options or through a year abroad) or afterwards. (I qualified as an accountant and went to work in the HQ of a German firm. The office language was English and much of the business was in the US, so they wanted fluent written English and were prepared to overlook my complete lack of German.)

And to OP. Have you considered SOAS? Otherwise I would agree....UCL probably has the strongest language department.

Salamat Jalan!

I live abroad but I also work in HE and have done for 20 years, with experience in a few countries and across several related subject areas including languages.

Re: SOAS, I have never worked there but I have taken classes there and have colleagues who have worked there. The range of languages is amazing but my impression in recent years is that it is not a very happy institution and student "satisfaction" surveys (for what it's worth) have been consistently quite low. Such things are not a perfect measure at all, and for some languages it certainly remains the only or obvious place, but I'm not sure I could wholeheartedly recommend it atm.

I don't disagree. Both with the somewhat troubled reputation, but also that for some languages and cultural studies it is the only, or obvious, place, both at UG or more clearly at PG level.

OP has not said which language(s) her DC wants to study. If they are considering an Asian or Middle Eastern language, SOAS should be on a list, if only to be rejected.

@TizerorFizz

Not true that Bath doesn't offer an MFL degree. You can do MFL alongside other things, but there's also a standalone course involving 2 MFLs. www.bath.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate-2022/modern-languages/ba-modern-languages-including-year-abroad/

Needmoresleep DS wants to study 2 or 3 from German, Italian, Portuguese. He is already fluent (English native speaker) in 2 others. He spoke to 4 of them today and one has probably been struck off the list as they will only allow him to do one from the above list. He just doesn't think that will lead to a challenging enough degree (for him). We are hoping UCL are going to be the most flexible option but we have to wait and see ...

Thanks for all the advice about MFL degrees outside of London but it is only London that he is currently considering, for different reasons than being "somewhat immature" as a previous poster suggested.

KCL as I remember has quite a few people working also on Brazil / Portuguese literature but I think doesn't offer Italian.