Which uni list is best to go on re engineering? Guardian list varies hugely to the Complete Uni guide

[3asyp33l3r]

Not sure which to go by.

Engineers in general will be more employable than graduates with some other types of degree. Within engineering there's obviously going to be variations both in how easy it is to get a job and what sorts of jobs are attainable. Some will need more practical skills,some will need genius- and some may need a bit of both. The 'best' course for one person isn't the best for another.

If you want to do a side by side comparison of some data including employment prospects and salary levels then you can try discoveruni.gov.uk (formerly unistats) .

A lot is about fit. What matters to the applicant/student.

There is a huge range of engineering degrees. Indeed medicine degrees vary a lot. And a huge range of careers for eventual graduates.

Just because some random on the internet says her DH recruits from Portmouth does not mean much. Her DH might be running a small engineering company in the home counties or a major international research facility. He may be paying the sort of wages that would not attract a strong applicant from Cambridge or Imperial, etc.

OP I would recommend that you look at the other thread and contribute to that. I have just posted that DD had a great time at Imperial last year. Which does not contradict Mouseonmychair at all. Indeed she would be the first to agree that this experience is not uncommon.

It is about fit. Different league tables put together the metrics in a different ways. Your DC needs to sort out what matters to them: employability, social life, specialist options, scope to do further research, distance from home, cost, entry requirements, and and and. And effectively build their own preference table.

Re choosing which uni, there are other considerations besides where it sits in the league table. For example, DS is doing an MEng in mech eng. He could easily cross out quite a few universities, based on his preferences, which makes choosing easier. Fore example, he decided he wasn't keen enough to apply to Cambridge, although he had the grades. He didn't want a London university - and was too lazy anyway for Imperial (see Mouse's post above, and Needmoresleep's). He didn't want to be too far north. He looked at the Good University Guide. After crossing out those universities, he looked at the employability scores in the tables. Then he looked at where he'd like to live - he figured he would be in demand anyway with an engineering degree. (I assume he looked at course content as well!) He's at his first choice now, which is Bath, and has really enjoyed it. For others, being in London might be important, or they might not want a campus university. It looks daunting deciding where to go at first, but when you look into it, there are often quite a few universities you can rule out straight away.

@Blubells

But it's like medicine, it gets you the same qualification that employers ask for and is sought after

I think the employment prospects with a Cambridge or Imperial degree will be particularly good. I do think there's a big difference as to which Uni applicants graduate from

Just to be clear - this is not true for medicine although it may be true for engineering.

Here's a perspective from the other side that I found useful when trying to decide how much weight (if any) to put on league table rankings.

blogs.nottingham.ac.uk/physics/2018/06/04/university-league-tables-bad-whats-better/

(written by the Head of School of a department that was doing very well in the rankings at the time - so not motivated by sour grapes)

"University league tables are a terrible way to choose where to apply for a university place. Why? Well, there are two main reasons, one to do with the way the tables are compiled, and one that is an intrinsic shortcoming of the very idea of a league table."

That's a very sane assessment. I'd never seen the volatility plotted, shows well that 'semi random' is about right for the guardian!

Hmm. Just to be clear. DH doesn’t recruit exclusively from Portsmouth. However as an engineering employer with a mid sized consultancy I do feel his experience is relevant and hands on. Unlike other posters who have no engineering experience at all! The whole point of quoting Portsmouth is that there are very good courses out there and not just at RG. You don’t necessarily need the top names to succeed. I think that’s a huge bonus and important for students to know. I’m sorry if that’s a view from “some random” but if is one with 40 plus years of running a hugely successful consultancy built up from scratch. Few others posting have that experience. Clearly league tables can show you so much but not everything.

@Mouseonmychair You are so right about getting the uni that’s best for you. Engineers work hard everywhere but you need downtime!

Also remember that many graduates will compete for jobs internationally. Global firms likely recruit from the top ranked Unis globally - and unfortunately in the Uk that includes mainly Cambridge and Imperial.

The others rank far lower, which is a shame that there's such a big gap.

It's worth looking at Unis abroad too.

@Blubells
I’m afraid you are totally wrong! Imperial has a large number of undergrads from abroad. They simply go home! We have outstanding universities here and there are outstanding, award winning, world renown, consultancies and companies right here. They are not so blinkered as to recruit from 2 universities. I’m afraid you really do not understand the market for engineers. Not everyone wants to work abroad when there is amazingly varied work here. Very many companies recruit here and offer opportunities abroad if they are large consultancies. But you are a tiny cog in a huge wheel. Lots of DC don’t want this. They prefer to be here. There are lots of opportunities for the right people.

The Guardian lists are known to be a bit of a joke.

Agree with all PP who’ve said league tables are nonsense and should be ignored.

As an example of why there’s one international league table (might be a Shanghai one?) where weighting is given to how many books in a library. Can be any books. So a uni could buy 3 million copies of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban and go up significantly in the ranking.

Lots on Wonkhe about how useless league tables are. Plus any using the NSS - some unis bribe you to answer it and some students go on strike about it sometimes if they’re not happy, so particularly unreliable.

The only league table worth considering is the Wonkhe one about how many parking spaces each uni has for staff, and even then only if you do work in HE!

Not everyone wants to work abroad when there is amazingly varied work here.

I feel that engineers are relatively undervalued in the UK in terms of pay and reputation.

Where is the evidence that internationals simply go home? Lots that DC have known already have quite international backgrounds and have been to international schools, and many are very open to starting their careers in the UK. In the same way that many British young people with good degrees are open to working abroad. For example just about everyone we have known who went to Cambridge for a PhD in either engineering or NatSci has ended up in Silicone Valley.

It sounds like another daft MN assertion, with a dollop of Xenophobia. .

DD, at Imperial last year, was in project groups with third or fourth year (Masters) engineers, and they came from all over, particularly Western Europe. (Lots of issues in trying to find times to suit them all as plenty including Asians and Canadians could not return to the UK.) Imperial is very international, both staff and students, and located in the centre of a world city. And hence a good passport to jobs both in the UK and overseas regardless of where you come from.

For example just about everyone we have known who went to Cambridge for a PhD in either engineering or NatSci has ended up in Silicone Valley.

Absolutely. As do engineering and science graduates from top Unis in North America, Europe or Asia!

We need to become a little more outward looking here in the UK.

@Fireatseaparks

The Guardian lists are known to be a bit of a joke.

This ^^

I don’t know which is the best list to go by, but I like the ‘satisfied with teaching’ column of the Guardian list.
If I was choosing I’d looks the best known universities and see if the students seem very satisfied with the teaching.

@Blubells
I agree engineers are undervalued here but the the profession “engineer” is not protected and is used by everyone who does even the most basic job!

We don’t really need to be more outward looking. We are already. Huge numbers of overseas students are in plenty of unis doing engineering!

The number of PhD engineers is relatively small though and not everyone wants to go abroad. DH employs a Cambridge phd. Specialist area of work.

People from Canada, China, Singapore etc have long gone back “home”. Looking at the numbers of overseas grad engineers with DHs qualifications, its very much world leading. They can work anywhere but plenty are in China for example. Or working in overseas offices of our consultancies. As for Silicon Valley? These are specialist jobs. Simply not where a standard Meng grad would go in very many disciplines!!

I think we need the best here. I do think the status should be better but if you run a successful consultancy you can make big bucks! Even in the sticks!

@ErrolTheDragon

Each of the lists has a number of columns which is combined to give an overall score. You can see for yourself. Iirc the guardian completely misses out research rankings. That may not matter much for some students/'vocational' courses, but does (IMO) if the student is a fairly high flyer in a STEM subject.

With the proviso that I normally agree with about 99% of what Errol says…

I'm afraid I don't entirely agree with this. I think 'research quality' as a metric is by and large totally irrelevant to a teenage undergraduate. It is hugely important to a post-grad so I guess if you are looking at an MEng it might become a consideration in your final year, but up until then? Not really.

Yes but you stay at the same university for MEng. So final year might well matter.

thing47, I am on 100% with Errol.

Last year DD loved being in a department where ground breaking research was happening. A lot of her biomedical engineering course was project work, some close to her tutor's area of research. (And really cool, with genuine scope to save lives.) I saw a piece on TV about Imperial www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-55477276 and DD confirmed it was students in the year above.

There was a real feel that Imperial was a place where things were happening, and I think the same happened to a friend of DS' who got very involved in a specialist subject society, spent a year abroad on a scholarship and then came back to do postgrad.

@TizerorFizz

Yes but you stay at the same university for MEng. So final year might well matter.

Oh absolutely, TizerorFizz hence my qualifying statement about MEng and it possibly being relevant to the final year.

Needmoresleep given that your daughter is in her twenties and already in the middle of her medical degree, her experience at Imperial was surely more akin to a post-grad course? So that doesn't really negate my point as I completely agree research quality is vitally important at that stage of education.

FWIW my DD recently finished her Masters in London (not Imperial but somewhere just as highly ranked globally for her area of expertise) and was conducting original research. It was absolutely a major factor in her choice of post-grad and she would echo what your DD has said about the atmosphere and the working environment.

But for her first degree? I'm not convinced.

What kind of engineering? Chemical, mechanical, aerospace, civil…?

I guess if you are looking at an MEng it might become a consideration in your final year,

Which if you're interested in 'best' for engineering you almost certainly are. And they do mini projects in earlier years too. Back in the day doing a chemistry BSc, DH and I realised it mattered (somewhat belatedly as there wasn't any good info available then that we were aware of).

Postgrad students may also be involved with the undergrads to some level, at least as lab 'demonstrators', but sometimes more - Cambridge PhD students doing some of the 'supervisions' is a massive advantage for the undergrads, for example.

Thing47, after a fairly intense summer school, intercalation students are slotted more or less into third year UG, so most of her peers were engineering UGs. (Good as they were essentially working in interdisciplinary teams, like in real life.) It will have been project work around the tutor’s field of research, not origin research, but they still had to build something, ordering parts from China, get results and analyse them, and sufficiently cutting edge that they could not talk about it in detail.

It was a weird year, stuck in her childhood bedroom. I am still Team Errol. It was a good way to spend the COVID year, and cool, but it would have been even better if she had been able to actually meet people and be in a lab.

It is one of London’s strengths. Lots of research, lots of post grads, all sorts of people passing through, and courses that can be available to third year as well as post grads.

Sort of back to league tables. Research strength is something that will appeal to some students, but be irrelevant to others.

@thing47
The whole post grad issue regarding a second university is less relevant for undergrad engineers. The best are on MEng degrees anyway. So 4 years in one place. Yes some will need a MSc later in their careers but not all BEng degree holders will do this by any means. They accept they are on the Incorporated Engineer pathway. Most employers will have a variety of employees. Lots of the apprenticeships are BEng.

@MikeWozniaksMohawk.
Yes. The type of engineering actually matters. There is a very narrow view of parents on here because they are not employers. They don’t see a variety of careers or grads. Or know anyone much who is more mature but is an engineer. Just seeing a student at one university with their friends isn’t the same as employing them.