Undergrad Teacher training and child education/development careers

[NotDonna]

Yr12 DD wants to work with children and is interested in teaching particularly (she thinks) primary or early years but hasn’t ruled out secondary.

1. I know lots of teachers are v unhappy and are leaving so I’m a bit concerned that it’s not a great career choice. Is it really that bad?

2. other ideas? She’s 10 GCSEs 7-9 & doing History, Psychology, Economics A levels and A/S level core maths. No predictions as yet but maybe AAA/AAB. She doesn’t fancy having to do masters phds etc. to get started (Eg child psychologist) although she may wish to study further as career progresses. What else is ‘out there’ along the lines of child development / education?

3. It seems primary / early years teaching she can do a BEd with QTS included.
   a) Are some courses/universities better than others for undergrad teaching?
   b) how do placements work if she chooses a university away from home?
   c) what is career progression like as a primary teacher?
   d) what does she need to consider when choosing between early years teaching or primary?
   e) are there any courses that cover teaching ages 3-11?
   Huge thanks

I've been teaching for 27 years in secondary schools and have also done 3 years in a primary alongside my secondary work.

1. It's hard work, especially at the start. There are some great Headteachers out there and some idiots. I have worked for 10 different ones in 7 schools. 6 were good, 1 ok and 3 terrible. A poor Head makes teaching really tough.

1. For primary teaching, those A levels sound fine.

1. I believe really strongly in making your qualifications as broad-based as possible. BEd is ok if you are adamant that teaching is for you. However, I prefer BA/BSc with PGCE or SCITT because you have your degree subject to fall back on if you hate teaching.

a. Probably but I don't know. My local university doesn't cover my subject so I don't get involved in ITT.

b. They look at a student's transport options. My DD's BF is currently doing a PGCE. He is at a London uni, living 45 minutes away at his parents' home but has his own car. The uni has given him placements closer to his home where he can drive to them. One of DD's housemates is doing their PGCE at Cambridge. They can't drive. All their schools are commutable by public transport. When I did mine, I had a house and a car so I was given schools on my side of the city, once of which took 25 minutes to drive to but would be 90 minutes by train.

c. Career progression is more limited in primary teaching: classroom teacher, leadership role/SLT, Deputy, Head. In secondary teaching there are more options in terms of leading pastorally or curriculum, initiatives or research before you get to SLT.

d. EYFS is interesting but ties you to a limited age range. Primary means you have to teach the whole curriculum to anyone from 5 - 11. With primary/EYFS you keep the same group of children for a year. With secondary you see a lot more students, but see them for less time. If you don't like a kid in secondary, it's much easier than primary.

e. I don't know, sorry.

Does your DD do anything with children now eg Brownies or babysitting? It would help her application if she can demonstrate knowledge of the age group she is considering.

Speech and language therapist.

3 year undergrad or a 2 year masters to qualify. Some courses now offer a 4 year integrated BSc and Masters.

Speech and Language Therapists work across the lifespan from neonates to end of life. The majority work with children, in some capacity.

Thank you for your very comprehensive reply @Malbecfan and your idea @misselphaba
Regarding her studying a BA/BSc first then a PGCE would the subject need to be in something that schools teach? For example if she were to do that route so she had a back-up could she still apply for primary and would her degree need to be History (given psych & Econ not taught at primary)? Or is it the ‘graduate’ bit that matters? I can see how it is necessary to have a relevant subject degree for secondary.

OT?

Absolutely wouldn't advise teaching. See all the threads with teachers leaving. Its a bit if a dead end and hard ro restart a career after (people recommend being a TA which you cant get to minimum wage fiul time on.)

Truly do a degree first as can always train to teach but you dont want to be limited with thag as only option.

Hi op, any degree is fine for primary PGCE.

If you want to teach secondary you have to really love your subject as you do it all the time.

Can she get some time in a school to see what she thinks? And talk to some teachers?

My son is at Brighton uni studying primary Ed with a maths specialism ending with QTS. We had the same dilemma and I originally thought a degree then PGCE into teaching but he was adamant that it was primary he wanted and this course so it was his choice in the end. We went with the specialism as although it's 5-11 thought it might make him stand out.
He's loving the course and living in Brighton, 2nd year it's so much better than last year. Lots of uni time and 8 weeks placement after Christmas. Last year he was bussed to a school in Worthing daily, it was a massive junior school so took lots of uni students. Not sure this year yet.

Thank you everyone! She’s very unsure about what degree she would do. Out of her A level subjects she’s finding psychology the most enjoyable.
@whereshalligo does he have A level maths?

I did a PGCE 3-7 and have spent all my 7 years of teaching in early years. I love my job but I know that some don’t. The best way to find out if she wants to work in schools is to get some experience - volunteering in a local primary school. Teaching is hard work and there are some not very nice schools around. I have found a fabulous school that I love with an amazingly supportive headteacher - they are out there! I found it was important to find a school with an ethos I agreed with. I was passionate about child led learning so wanted a school that did that. Supply can be a great route into finding the right job.

When I did my PGCE, I went to a London uni and I lived about 45 minutes away by public transport. All my placements were in local boroughs. I had to complete a questionnaire about transport options and whether I had access to a car - I didn’t, so my placements were commutable by bus or train.

When you have QTS you are qualified to teach 3-11, whether your PGCE or BEd was in early years or primary. Some heads will move people around every few years but the schools I’ve been at have always valued those with EYFS experience and kept us in Nursery or Reception. If you do 3-7 you can get a job in Key Stage 2, and if you do 5-11 you can get a job in EYFS. There are lots of opinions on which one to go for but I would suggest that your DD thinks about which one she will enjoy the most and get the most out of. I went for 3-7 because I knew I wanted to specialise in EY. People do say that a BEd can limit choices if you change your mind about teaching but I wouldn’t know. Degree subject doesn’t really matter for PGCE. It could link to a national curriculum subject or she could do something like Early Childhood studies if she is interested in that.

I hope that all helps!

@NotDonna yes he does have a maths A level but don't think it was a prerequisite of the course. He had to take and pass a government English and Maths test before he could start but these have stopped now and the university set their own last year.

@NotDonna one of my former students has a psychology degree. She then did a PGCE and worked in a primary school (I think either Reception or Y1) for her NQT year. She then took a role working as an education/mental health outreach worker for a large community organisation for a couple of years before going back into teaching in school. Psychology is absolutely fine for primary teaching, and there are psychology teachers in secondary schools, but they may need to team it with another subject.

My daughter has a psychology degree and is currently doing a school based PGCE (secondary psychology). Obviously it's early days but she is loving it and very pleased with the career path she has chosen.

She is only teaching psychology to 6th formers at the moment, but in the coming half term is likely to take on some sociology too (though she has never actually studied that herself) to fill her timetable a bit more. After Christmas she should move to a new school in the consortium where she should also be able to teach psychology GCSE which her current school doesn't offer.

My daughter thought about primary but decided on secondary. She is very interested in teenage mental health and there is lots of overlap with the psychology syllabus and the pastoral side. For example she has just started teaching the upper 6th about eating disorders. She also hopes to become involved in teaching PSHE at some point and to have a wider pastoral role within the school.

As far as the theoretical side of the PGCE is concerned, she has found that some of the content (eg about how people learn) was already familiar to her because it was covered in her psychology degree. That has given her a bit of a head start compared with some of the other trainees in the scheme. In that respect of course a psychology degree is very good preparation for primary teaching too.

Good luck to your daughter, OP, whatever she decides.

Thank you @Malbecfan I really think she’d enjoy a psychology degree and if teaching didn’t suit after a few years there’s probably spin off careers to consider.
She does a fair amount of babysitting. She asked last year about helping at beavers/Cubs/brownies but they didn’t want a teen. I think there’s child:adult ratios and she’d be classed as a child as under 18. Are schools open to having yr12/13 ‘helping’ them out? She’s also interested in doing some summer camp type work, which I think would be useful.

Hi notdonna. Can you do a bit of digging about why she favours little ones? I find that some young people think it is easier, children are sweet, there is no marking, it's creative and artsy , and terribly fulfilling. Only some of those are partially true! No marking definitely isn't!

Teaching is not a job to romanticise or idealise as 'world changing'. Unfortunately the DfE ads do tend to do this!

I agree that work experience in a primary setting will help. I spent some time doing that in a school for hearing impaired children when I was 16 and it was very helpful. And a real eye opener.

fifth, I am just chortling at the idea that a psychology teacher can fill in with a bit of sociology! Typical school thing! 'If it ends in an ology it must be basically the same!'.

Can I recommend she gets Ken Browne's wonderful Sociology textbook? It's fat but fun, and easy to read!

In terms of potentially teaching secondary psychology, most schools and unis now position psychology as a proper science, rather than a social science, so expect/want a science back up (often biology or sometimes maths). But economics and/or history could be an interesting second subject. She would need to watch out for suddenly being expected to teach something completely random, though because of assumptions about psychology (see the sociology example above!)

I actually wouldn’t recommend it to anyone and I so wish I had chosen to do something else.

If she is undecided, I wouldn’t recommend a teaching degree. Choose a subject and do a normal undergrad degree-psychology or history would be fine-then you can do a PGCE or not, later.

The hours are long, and the work often pointless and benefiting only SLT and Ofsted, not the children.

Career progression is a real issue especially in primary where you only really have classroom teachers, deputy heads and heads. If heads are strapped for cash (they all are), then they’ll prefer two new teachers than one experienced ones as it’s warm bodies in front of classes! There is a pay scale but it’s not automatic progression op the spine points.

If you want to move schools, because pay portability was scrapped, you may not be able to get a job on the same pay point so although you look at the teacher pay scale and think UPS3 looks good-you may never get anywhere near that salary. Heads will prefer someone on mps2, no matter how inexperienced as they are so much cheaper.

There are early years courses but not many. Once you’re in a primary though, the head can put you anywhere up to y6. You can move schools obviously, if you don’t like it, but remember about the pay portability! If she’s away at university, the placements will be near where she’s studying. Having a car would be very useful as you can be put anywhere. We all get in at between 7.15-7.45 so if she was arriving after a 40 minute bus or train journey (including walking to the stop and waiting etc), that would be some early starts.

I would jump at the chance of a Yr12 offering to help out in the classroom, and many schools are re-opening to visitors now the restrictions allow them to. I would advise her to do some work experience in both primary and secondary before she makes a decision, because if she trains for primary, she won't be qualified to work in secondary if she later changes her mind and would need to do further training. I do know of a primary teacher who has a psychology undergraduate so this is indeed a possibility. If she does decide on secondary with a psychology degree, as PP mentioned, her timetable may be light and she might get roped into teaching something else and it might have no relevance. One year I had to teach RE (nothing related to my subject specialism), and I have had a drama and a music colleague (2 different schools) teaching French because they had a GCSE in it and space on their timetable.

Teaching is very different when you are young and don't have many responsibilities, but her priorities may change if she later decides to have children of her own. I love my job, but I am reaching the end of my earning potential as I am at the top of the upper band and it's frustrating that I put in all these hours and for the same level of stress and number of hours in the private sector, I would be earning much more. It also depends on the school you work in. In two very high performing schools I have worked at, recreational cocaine use was rife (including by the headteachers) - so they really do vary! I currently work in an amazing school, but it's so great to work here that no one leaves until retirement, which means very rarely there is a promotion opportunity. I'm nervous about moving elsewhere because I've heard some real horror stories from teacher friends in other schools.
I am glad I did a degree first because if I ever decide to jump ship, I have a back up. In the current climate, I wouldn't advise anyone to do a BEd but rather go down the PGCE route later. The kids are fab and make the job the best job in the world, and we definitely need more great teachers, but we also need to be realistic that a high proportion of new teachers do quit and she should have a back up plan just in case. It would also give her more time to research and get work experience, as the long uni holidays generally overlap with school term times. I'm not trying to put her off, but she still seems to be on the fence about whether she wants to be a teacher and she's not sure where she should be, which isn't a strong starting point.

@CheesecakeAddict it's not always the case that secondary teachers can't teach primary & vice versa. I'm secondary trained and have been doing that job since 1994 but until July, I also spent 3 years in a primary school alongside my secondary work. They wanted a music specialist rather than a primary specialist, which is what I do. In the 1st year I taught KS2 but last year I taught everyone from R to y6. I loved working with a mixed R/y1 class, despite it being well out of my comfort zone.

As others have said:

Yes, it’s hard work! Lots of teachers are leaving however lots are also stuck as they did an undergrad course and don’t feel they have skills elsewhere. I’d recommend advising her away from it as much as you can, although my mum advised me against it and I still did it (and she was right, of course!).

I’d recommend doing a different course (any course really, within reason!) and then doing postgrad teacher training. It will be funded I believe and gives her more options if she does decide it’s not for her.

Thinking about classroom experience for her, dd has reminded me that she used to do buddy reading at the nearby primary in sixth form - that would be easy to arrange and would give her a taste of teaching.

Subject wise at uni - easier to find a job teaching history or English than psych, as others say, as that is often only taught at A level, if then.

@Piggywaspushed

fifth, I am just chortling at the idea that a psychology teacher can fill in with a bit of sociology! Typical school thing! 'If it ends in an ology it must be basically the same!'.

Can I recommend she gets Ken Browne's wonderful Sociology textbook? It's fat but fun, and easy to read!

Yes indeed. I think she had expected to make up her timetable with English, given that she has an A level in that and some experience of tutoring GCSE students.

Thanks for the recommendation. I know she has looked at the A level sociology spec. and has been recommended a couple of books, so I'll check whether the one you have mentioned is among them and, if not, will suggest to to her.

@Awkwardusername

As others have said:

Yes, it’s hard work! Lots of teachers are leaving however lots are also stuck as they did an undergrad course and don’t feel they have skills elsewhere. I’d recommend advising her away from it as much as you can, although my mum advised me against it and I still did it (and she was right, of course!).

I’d recommend doing a different course (any course really, within reason!) and then doing postgrad teacher training. It will be funded I believe and gives her more options if she does decide it’s not for her.

Just to point out that postgraduate teacher training will not necessarily be funded. Bursaries are available to some students, depending on their first degree. Those with maths, science and MFL degrees on the other hand get generous bursaries while they train to teach.

Graduates in many other subjects (including Psychology) are not funded and trainees have to pay £9,250 for the PGCE course (student loans are available).

because if she trains for primary, she won't be qualified to work in secondary if she later changes her mind and would need to do further training

I’m not sure where the op who wrote this works, but this isn’t the case in England-I know loads of teachers who have swapped between primary/secondary with no extra training needed. Once you’re a qualified teacher, you’re qualified.

Most academies don’t even care in you’re qualified which is probably one of the things that annoys me the most! Is there an unqualified dentist pay scale…?!

I must say, when I trained, you could train for secondary and then teach primary, but not the other way round (don't really know why not, except perhaps that a primary teacher may not have a specialist degree subject).

That may have changed of course as this was about 14 yrs ago.