Best uni for English & Creative writing? Lancaster? Nottingham?

[BonnesVacances]

DS wants to do English and Creative Writing. All he's ever wanted to do is be a writer. He's doing English Lang A level and many unis want Lang Lit A level, if not just Lit. But that's ok as he wants to do language-focussed study not literature anyway and he knew that when he chose his A levels. And he's doing a Lit extension.

Top of the list so far is Lancaster (AAB). He'll also look at Nottingham (AAA) and Loughborough (AAB). The grades are achievable, but are by no means guaranteed, so insurance options are either Manchester Met and Brighton which are BBB-BBC.

Am I right in thinking that Lancaster is the best place for linguistics? Even though Nottingham is asking for AAA I'm assuming that's because it's RG rather than because of its outstanding linguistics courses? Or do I have that all wrong? The website for Lancaster says it's 3rd in the UK for linguistics and I think Oxbridge are 1st & 2nd, not Nottingham.

By the way, and not wishing to hijack the thread, those of you with creative writing or similar postgrads who took that route after unrelated undergraduate degrees - and possibly a gap of several years - would be very welcome on the sparkling new Mature Study and Retraining board under the Education topic.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mature_students

So many people are tentatively considering such a move, but don’t know where to start, or assume they’re too old. Which they’re not, of course.

Thanks again. We had most of these discussions with him when he opted for Language A level over Lang Lit combined or just Lit. But it boils down to the fact that if he needs Lit A level to do what he wants, and he doesn't want to do literature, then perhaps what he wants to do isn't actually right for him after all. But as there are courses in English & CW that require English Lang, albeit more limited, it suggests it is possible within the English/CW arena to find one that fits his interests.

He is a voracious reader, but whilst he is fairly open minded about what he reads, like most readers, he is reluctant to read across ALL genres because reading is still a pleasure activity at the moment. He's doing the Lit extension because he has a genuine interest in books and it's a chance to really broaden his range. But I think he was turned off Lit at school because so much GCSE time is spent on it as opposed to Lang and he wanted more Lang. He got two 9s at GCSE so is equally proficient in both. He was just adamant he didn't want to study Lit at A level and wanted to keep it optional (and avoid Shakespeare).

But Shakespeare is the greatest writer there has ever been in the whole history of the whole wide world ever. Stamps foot.

I agree @Piggywaspushed

This course is meant to be good - some element of lit but no requirement for a lit A-level www.bcu.ac.uk/courses/english-and-creative-writing-ba-hons-2022-23

Many of my author friends have MAs in creative writing, not BAs. If he enjoys language and linguistics, he’d have much more choice if he went down that route for undergrad degree. As others have said, there are plenty of opportunities at university to get involved in writing (student papers, competitions etc). And he could always consider a Creative Writing MA later on. I just think mixing the two is unnecessary and potentially limiting his options at undergraduate level.

Not everyone can afford to do both an undergraduate and postgraduate degree. Writing is such a precarious profession he won’t have money to fritter away.

@Hdhdjejdj

Not everyone can afford to do both an undergraduate and postgraduate degree. Writing is such a precarious profession he won’t have money to fritter away.

But he doesn’t need any form of qualification to be a writer. The growth in MAs is largely because people hope it will give them a leg up with agent representation, and the growth in CW PhDs is driven by writers who teach CW at universities needing doctorates to be able to examine PhD candidates themselves.

But no one needs any qualifications to write. Or connections. I get slightly alarmed that younger writers now think they need a degree. I just wrote a novel and sent it to agents. I haven’t a single CW qualification,m.

I know a few published fiction writers, including those who wrote best sellers. None did a CW degree or even an MA. They have degrees in other subjects. Some did an evening course in CW later on, but nothing that led to a qualification.

I don't think they think they need a degree. They see they are available and think they might be inspiring, engaging, energising and interesting? Surely that's OK?

Lincoln, for example, has loads of visiting speakers and advisors, including, for example, Carol An n Duffy. that's great for students who might otherwise never meet living successful writers.

I think, as with the film industry, its a bit misleading to say forging connections and networks doesn't help...

But they might have done daisy if those degrees had been available. It's a booming industry. Nearly every straight English degree now offers modules in Creative Writing.

I think it should be a joint honours ideally but I don't have any more problem with this than I have with someone doing a costume design degree, screenwriting or even paramedics and then not going on to work or in those sectors.

My DD is doing English & Creative Writing as a joint honours at UEA. She discounted Warwick, Manchester, Leeds and one other (can't remember) after looking carefully at their courses. She is very happy there, within the context of having the first 2 years severely disrupted by covid.

@Piggywaspushed

I don't think they think they need a degree. They see they are available and think they might be inspiring, engaging, energising and interesting? Surely that's OK?

Lincoln, for example, has loads of visiting speakers and advisors, including, for example, Carol An n Duffy. that's great for students who might otherwise never meet living successful writers.

I think, as with the film industry, its a bit misleading to say forging connections and networks doesn't help...

Frankly, the chances of someone who does a CW degree having a career as a published writer in the sense that most of them want — overwhelmingly, to be a novelist — are extremely slim, as they are for the people who write a novel and send it to agents on spec. (I write novels, but like most I also have a job.)

I imagine that courses that specialise in ‘applied’ stuff like screenwriting may be entirely different and forge potentially useful connections, but no literary agent is going to sign someone for any other reason than they think they can sell their work. My agent goes to numerous CW degree showcases a year and I think has signed two people from all of them down the years. Most final year undergrad students aren’t going to have a novel at anywhere near the level of completion she’s looking for, so the most she would be saying is ‘Send it to me when it’s finished’. And even then it will end up waiting in a queue to be read at night or at the weekend, as agents aren’t going to be reading new work during their working day.

But that's my whole point. they are doing a degree as they do any degree because they love it. It doesn't close down other opportunities such as teaching, for example.

I would argue that the chances if they are at Lancaster or UEA are still higher.

Screenwriting is no more 'applied' than CW. It's a branch of CW! It's narrower, which is why it is again best to do it in combinations with another allied subject.

I agree with you that CW should be a joint honour, but I think that’s a different thing to someone doing a paramedic degree and then not working in the field. A paramedic degree trains you for a specific job. You may choose not to do that after your degree. CW doesn’t train you for a job, obviously, and doesn’t have the same widespread acceptance as a substantial first degree of, say, another humanities subject likeEnglish or History with which you can head in many directions. Which is why I think it should only be offered as a joint honours degree. It is a cash cow for universities, as it’s a massive growth area. At one place I worked, CW was funding English and other humanities.

I think in screenwriting it’s hard to succeed without connections. It’s not impossible but 90% is about making connections. A PP spoke about Manchester grads getting trialled for shows after completion of their degrees. That’s the advantage of an academic approach to this.

@Clandestin

I agree with you that CW should be a joint honour, but I think that’s a different thing to someone doing a paramedic degree and then not working in the field. A paramedic degree trains you for a specific job. You may choose not to do that after your degree. CW doesn’t train you for a job, obviously, and doesn’t have the same widespread acceptance as a substantial first degree of, say, another humanities subject likeEnglish or History with which you can head in many directions. Which is why I think it should only be offered as a joint honours degree. It is a cash cow for universities, as it’s a massive growth area. At one place I worked, CW was funding English and other humanities.

As an English specialist, I am glad that it is!

Interesting discussion. DH says that he agrees with both of you

There's definitely merit in forging connections and building up a network of contacts if you want to be a journalist-type of writer (and probably a scriptwriter too, though he has no knowledge of that sector). Particularly if you want to be a freelancer – all the work he is offered comes via contacts, and if it isn't quite right for him, he in turn puts the commissioning editor onto contacts of his who he thinks might be more suitable for the commission.

Less sure networking is important if you're trying to write a novel. Agrees with Piggywaspushed that it's fine to do a CW course for enjoyment and because you might get some useful hints and tips out of it, but also agrees with Clandestin that a CW course in itself isn't going to get you any closer to being published and to be wary of any course promising such (the good ones don't).

Vanishingly few people make a living out of being a novelist (the average income is something like £10,000pa), almost everyone has a job – which can of course be in writing, but not as a novelist – and writes their own stuff on the side, in the evenings and at weekends.

He got two 9s at GCSE so is equally proficient in both. He was just adamant he didn't want to study Lit at A level and wanted to keep it optional (and avoid Shakespeare).
There is a natural tendency to avoid areas that are hard and alien to start with like Shakespeare or even tackling analysis of literature instead of reading simply for the story itself. However to continue the ‘muscle metaphor’ you can’t increase strength by just doing what is comfortable and easy all the time.

That aside maybe he should think a bit more laterally for his degree - for example something like American studies perhaps with added optional creative writing modules or an MA after.