Go big or go home? 5th ucas choice.

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DC is going to be applying to university soon. She's fairly sure of 4 choices, but stuck on the fifth.

Option one: go big, apply to very aspirational choice (e.g. Oxford, Durham). Unlikely to get an offer, but on the other hand definitely won't get one if doesn't apply. Obviously if they did get an offer, they'd have to get the grades, which would be stressful.

Option 2: apply to local uni (very well-regarded red brick). Can commute in an hour door to door, will future proof a bit against possible Covid disruption, and would be budget option as could live at home. But it is in a big city, Dc not that keen.

Option 3: choose another random uni with similar entry requirements to other choices?? Or with much lower?

Option 4: just apply to 4??

DH and I both feel option 1 and 2 are a better bet than 3 or 4, since if Dc isn't that bothered by 5th choice either way, may as well use it as a bit of a wild card.

Anyone got any advice?

It's for French and history, so I imagine pretty popular.

Modern Languages is one of the least popular schools. History and ML is more popular but not one of the most competitive. Oxford had a 26% success rate last year, Cambridge 32%. The average across all courses is 1 in 5 get a place. Modern Languages has a higher success rate, I believe.

www.history.ox.ac.uk/admissions-facts-and-figures

Acceptance to offer ratios for History and Modern Languages at other universities seem to be high (90+%) so she stands a good chance of multiple offers. I don't think an application to Oxford would be that much of a wasted application any more than a "wildcard" 5th choice.

Obviously the best people to ask about her potential would be her teachers and she should probably do more thorough research of acceptance rates than my quick Google. Here are the aptitude tests, if she would like to have a look at them. She'll find plenty of advice on how to prepare online and there are books to help. She wouldn't have long to prepare (November) but it wouldn't be wasted effort, even if she doesn't get in. The HAT will help her develop her skills as an historian for A-level/university anyway and maybe improve her grades. It is about critical analysis skills etc rather than knowledge so there is no need to revise. The MLAT will be good revision practice.

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/guide/admissions-tests/hat
www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/guide/admissions-tests/mlat

Thanks for that info Cheshire Cat. How do you find things like acceptance rates? I tried googling and couldn't find anything

Have been taking to Dd about everything a lot this pm. She still can't decide what to do.

We'll look at all the links and have a talk with her teachers.

I didn't realise you had to take a test alongside your application for Oxford. Was it once the case that you didn't have to take it unless you were already invited for interviews?

I just Googled... She might need to look for number of applications and number of offers/places and do the maths herself if she can't find the acceptance rate or try different search terms.

It might be on the subject website (like the Oxford link I posted) or the university admissions page (they all publish statistics). Someone will have probably made an FOI request to ask. If you are lucky, someone will have already done the research and posted it on TSR. I found this site, but I don't know how reliable it is:

www.admissionreport.com/

She can always just email to ask the universities she is considering. They are usually very helpful.

Maybe you are thinking of the old STEP exams (sixth term examination paper) for Cambridge? Offers were conditional on getting the grades in the STEP exams after interview.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Term_Examination_Paper

OP, another thing for your DD to think about is that all language degrees are definitely not the same in terms of content. An Oxford MFL degree is very "literature heavy". Is that the type of degree your DD would enjoy if she did get a place? I'm not familiar with how it works for joint honours in history and French, but for a join honours degree in languages for Oxford you have to take an entrance test called the MLAT. The French MLAT is designed to really test a candidate's knowledge of French grammar.

An Oxford MFL degree is very "literature heavy" but less so a joint honours with history.

I totally agree with you that it is important to research the course content for any degree though as the focus will vary hugely between universities.

How lovely that you are even thinking about this. She has won half the battle having interested parents, the rest may not even make that much difference now. She is already coming from a place of privilege which will set her up well.

Unless it is Oxbridge, she does not need to add her fifth choice till early January. You could take stock then. If she already has an offer you could add somewhere like Durham or UCL. If not, add a further ‘safety’ option.

It also depends on whether she is happy to take a gap year. DCs (private) school’s advice was to treat it as a 2 year process. Aim high, though remaining realistic, first time round. Second time around, with grades in the bag, it is easier to add some realistic safety choices. For DC it made for a rough ride as they both had to wait till late March to hear. They got two offers each, including one of their top choices, but some got none, and had to reapply. Like trying Oxbridge, it was a life lesson in being in it to win it, but potentially a distraction in a year where kids need to focus on academics.

If she does decide to go for Oxford then she will need to submit her UCAS application and to have entered both HAT and MLAT by 15 October. I assume her school will have also set an internal deadline earlier than that to allow the application to be checked and the reference written and attached.

History at Durham will require high predicted grades. One good reason for selecting Oxford or Cambridge as aspirational choices would be if she can envisage getting something out of the application preparation. If she does get an offer she needs to be strong minded enough to potentially turn it down if she does not think it is the best degree for her. So as PPs said, that will depend on degree content fit. Additionally it will be about balance between work and other aspects of university experience. Single subject degrees at Oxford and Cambridge are time intensive, joint degrees even more so.

DH and DC and I had another big chat about it all yesterday evening.

Upshot: Dc has firmly rejected dh's plan of using 5th space for local uni.

Dc doesn't think Durham is worth the extra stress - I'm inclined to agree.

She thinks Oxford probably is worth the extra stress, and applying will be a good experience (even though we've left things a bit late).
Dc says best case (but probably least likely) scenario she gets an Ox offer and makes the grades.
Second best case scenario she gives it her best shot and doesn't get an offer, happily goes somewhere else and never has to wonder "what if..." Statistically this is probably the most likely outcome, which Dc is happy with.

Worst case scenario she gets an offer, but misses the grades and then misses out on accommodation at her insurance choice, or ends up having to go through clearing.

I said if that happened then perhaps plan B could be a gap year doing a language course in France for some of it, so no need for clearing, not wasted time, and she can apply again with grades in hand.

She is going to talk to the 6th form destinations advisor today.

To person who asked, she does really enjoy literature, is doing English as 3rd A level, and did spend some time agonising over which subject to continue at university- would do all 3 if she could. She was quite set on medieval studies or English and history for a while. So Oxford course does look a good fit for her.

I did an Access course a few years ago, and applied to 5 Unis (I was 31).

1 - local RG Uni
2 - local Top 20 Uni
3 - slightly further out RG Uni
4 - same as 3
5 - Wild Card choice - Bristol, nowhere near me, unlikely to be offered a place

Got offers from all 5

Did my first year at Choice 1, but did not enjoy the course so transferred to Choice 2, much better course, SEN and pastoral support, graduated with a First.

Have a look at St Andrews if DC not put off by Scotland. They have fantastic history courses on par with Oxbridge but without the extra work to apply. Just regular UCAS application.

Plan, thank you, Dc seriously considered St Andrews, and also Edinburgh, but in the end decided against Scotland for a few reasons - length of course being one, it would be 5 years instead of 4.
(Though I suppose it's not out of the question that she might suddenly change her mind again in the next few months!)

St A can be 4 or 5 years for languages

St A. does have four year undergraduate programs that result in a MA (hons) so not any longer than English unis.
www.st-andrews.ac.uk/subjects/history/medieval-history-ma/

www.st-andrews.ac.uk/subjects/archaeology/medieval-history-archaeology-ma/

Just submit UCAS with her current 4 choices and wait to see if she likes another Uni/course in the next few months.

She can’t do that for Oxford, though, Daisysway. And I’d say it’s worth a punt. At this stage in Yr 13, DD had similar or slightly worse predictions of A*, A/B, B, but she got the hang of things more during the year. She applied post results (well, centre assessed grades for her year) and got an MFL offer.

The HAT is the history aptitude test used as part of the selection process for interviews. MLAT is the test for Modern Languages. You aren’t expected to get it all right; indeed, if DD is anything to go by, you can get half of it wrong and still get to interview.

If bonkers enough to do an extra language from scratch, there is the Languages Aptitude Test which assesses ability to interpret an invented language (DD quite enjoyed this one!).

Well Dd has spoken to her teachers and ucas destinations lead.

French teacher was pretty enthusiastic, and has offered her some extra grammar practice sessions, but history teacher much more cautious.

Ucas lead was quite negative as apparently she has missed out on lots of special support last year by deciding this at the last minute. He's said he needs her personal statement by Friday if she is serious.

This has actually brought out dd's stubborn streak, and she has been rewriting her personal statement and practising past papers of the French language test.

Good for her!

She’ll probably also need to send a marked school essay, with a brief description of the conditions under which it was written. That was quite a challenge for chaotic DD, months after leaving school.

Yes, she has to send 3 pieces of work, but she can send an English lit essay for one of the French ones, apparently, so that will make things a bit easier!