Top private schools losing their grip on Oxbridge article

[Nevermakeit]

on.ft.com/3hnt4iG
Interesting article from the FT today . I don't understand why there never seems to be any nuance separating the top private schools which are incredibly hard to get into, and therefore select very bright children, and the more mediocre ones where the main discriminator is the ability to pay the fees...
If I were head of one of the top schools (and not just a parent!), this is what I would be arguing, that the children are not simply hothoused (though of course they undoubtedly are), but they were exceptional to begin with!! Yet, they never seem to put this across (either in the media or to the Oxbridge colleges themselves, where they supposedly have such great relationships), and agree to be lumped together with all the other private schools.
I just don't understand it, especially as then they could get their kids in more 'under the radar' , as at the national level, the state school intake would still be looking good....
What do others think?

@HavelockVetinari I agree , my ds isn’t applying to Oxford , he has left school I was replying to a specific poster who asked me a question .

@HavelockVetinari

Look, if Oxbridge are starting to take the student's background into account when making offers then that's a good thing. A child who's predicted 3 A* at many state comps is achieving far more than a child predicted the same grades at a private school. Even a super-selective grammar, since class sizes are much larger than in a private school.

I'm sure your DS is bright, but he's also very privileged. He'll do fine no matter where he goes to university, like most kids at private schools. Better that more places go to bright state school kids, at the very least in proportion to the percentages of kids who go to private/state schools. At the moment it's biased towards private schools.

Also - just because private schools are selective, doesn't mean they're automatically full of the brightest kids - it's only the brightest kids of the small percentage of parents who can afford to send their DC. Not terribly difficult.

When you say ‘background’ do you mean the socio- economic status of the child’s home or purely which sector the child has been educated in?

I always think in terms of,
I know a child with 3A* from an average/below average comp is very clever.
I think a child with 3A* from a grammar is probably very clever.
I think a child from a good private school with 3A* may be very clever.
Child from private school may in fact be cleverer than the other 2 children but it not proven yet, you can get 3A* from a good private school without being “very” clever, you can’t from a failing comp.

@Christchurchmum2021

I always think in terms of, I know a child with 3A* from an average/below average comp is very clever. I think a child with 3A* from a grammar is probably very clever. I think a child from a good private school with 3A* may be very clever. Child from private school may in fact be cleverer than the other 2 children but it not proven yet, you can get 3A* from a good private school without being “very” clever, you can’t from a failing comp.

Surely an A* indicates the same level of "cleverness" whichever school A* from failing comp says more motivation rather than intelligence necessarily (which is a good thing)

No. An A* from a local, failing comp shows not only motivation, but the ability to teach oneself and extend learning beyond mixed ability classroom teaching, resilience, ambition and the self-confidence to exceed expectations. True intelligence shouldn't require any spoon feeding from advantaged backgrounds.

My son attends Oxford from a Scottish comp, so I speak from first-hand experience.

@aurea

No. An A* from a local, failing comp shows not only motivation, but the ability to teach oneself and extend learning beyond mixed ability classroom teaching, resilience, ambition and the self-confidence to exceed expectations. True intelligence shouldn't require any spoon feeding from advantaged backgrounds.

My son attends Oxford from a Scottish comp, so I speak from first-hand experience.

Completely agree. It's not just motivation. It's the full package. And I speak as the mother of a Cambridge grad who got there from a crappy comp. in addition the students are surrounded by others with low aspiration and expectation (not a judgement - a fact brought about by circumstance). So so easy to be blown off course by that cocktail.

Well if your theory was shared by Oxbridge they would never take anyone from private schools

Ok well I went to Cambridge and about half of my friends went into City jobs making big bucks. Their kids will go to good or top independents.
The other half went into academia, general teaching (many in top independents themselves and big discounts for their own kids!), medicine of course and then lots of sociably responsible jobs.
Most of their kids are very bright too and it won’t make a blind jot of difference where they go to school. Most of those kids have a good chance to get into Oxbridge. The ones of teachers and academics probably more than those of the bankers/lawyers. My point is they are all academically privileged kids with books at home and high level debate/conversation from an early age. Money does not have that much to do with it. Academic privilege does not equal top private school in my kind. It equals cultural capital for which you don’t need that much money if you have time and are highly educated as a parent.

Plenty of my friends will send their kids to “disadvantaged comps” out of principle and their kids will do well and probably get into Oxbridge. Equally, there are plenty of rather emotionally neglected kids in some top independent schools. So I think an A star from a failing comp with far less educated parents does indeed equal far more motivation etc, but not if your parents are academic idealists and socialists like quite a few of my friends.

Well if your theory was shared by Oxbridge they would never take anyone from private schools

The theory, as you call it, is shared by Oxbridge, that's why they have contextual admissions.

Of course they take students from private schools because a lot of them are very able. Only to be expected when a lot of them select on academic ability.

Although Christ my son from a fee paying private school got the top mark in the whole school in his subject for one A level, the school prize in it and his degree is in it. Guess what that top grade was from the private school - a B. So would you contextualise the B as best in cohort compared to the A*s in the subject from local state schools? We should to be fair but no one will.

@Bryonyshcmyony I assume that’s why they do their own admission tests and interviews, probably allows the independent candidates that are “very” clever to show that, beyond the 3A* that the vast majority of offer holders have.

@Xenia. I’m actually quite surprised that in a (selective?) independent their top mark was a B, it does suggest a problem with the teaching. Was it something like teaching wrong curriculum?

I think I’m missing something about contextual offers, I understood that at Oxford there was some leeway in getting an interview, ie in PPE 2019 feedback a mark of 73.26 would get you an interview, between 70.45-73.26 you’d probably get an interview and between 68.37-70.45 you might get an interview if something else flagged in your application. I’ve assumed that this would be either an excellent essay, something in your personal statement or reference, and contextual flagsie GCSE’s, polar, fsm, carer. I have perhaps wrongly assumed that this is where the contextualisation happened. The standard grades required for PPE (AAA)shouldn’t be a problem for a successful applicant. Do they ever lower the offer?

As an aside I’ve often wondered what role primary schools play. In a very anecdotal way, my ds went to a v good state primary, a fairly affluent area, about 50-50 split state independent at secondary, percentage wise a similar number went to Oxbridge from his primary than from his v selective grammar school. Smaller cohort so an extra candidate makes a big difference but still! Also all the Oxbridge children from primary school went to different secondaries.

It's admissions tests and interviews where state kids really are at a disadvantage. It really isn't hard for bright kids at state or private to get A stars (my DCs both had a full house at GCSE and A level). And quite rightly top unis like Oxford and Cambridge (and Durham and Warwick for subjects like Maths) want to add an extra layer for selection. But the plain fact is most comps are way too preoccupied with the lower and mid level students to offer any support for the likes of ELATs and MATs. My DC had zero extra help, and no practice interviews. Quite a different picture even in the local non selective fee paying school.
This is where state students need at least some consideration which perhaps they are now getting. They definitely don't need contextual A level offers because they're well capable of getting top grades. And besides, contrary to popular belief this kind of contextualisation doesn't happen!

Bit of background.

Went to a shit comp in the 80s/90s. Working class parents who valued education - got 3As at A Level and went Russell Group Uni. With hindsight, somebody should have suggested Oxbridge. Have been teaching for over 20 years - shit inner-city comp, rural middle class comp and minor private school.

It's not as simple as private school kids have more advantage.

1. Some of the kids at the rural/market town comp had wealthy Oxbridge educated parents, tutors, family friends as admissions tutors. They had so much advantage - think holidays 'doing Machu Picchu' in Peru and pony club/young farmers. They knew how to play the system far more than the private school parents.

1. There is selection through postcode, faith schools, grammar schools etc so it is really difficult to define who has the most advantage.

1. I've taught some really clever kids - traveller parents, drug dealer parents, parents in jail etc. You've lost them way before Y13 and that's where the focus should be/ The lost potential in this country is huge.

So, I'm not sure how to solve the problem but simply saying let's get more state school kids to Oxbridge isn't the answer - it will just end up with more more grammar school, middle class, faith school kids who take the places and the genuinely poor but clever kids will continue to miss out.

It really is a bit shit being poor and actually in my 20+ years of teaching, the most deserving of an Oxbridge place was a lad at the private school I taught at. Full bursary (pushed by his primary school - his parents knew nothing about the system), parents in menial jobs, no family member ever been to Uni, full-on regional dialect which he refused to dilute and just an awesome student who loved the academic rigour of study.

I really don't think pony club gives you any academic advantage otherwise all four of mine would have 1sts from Oxford 🤣

simply saying let's get more state school kids to Oxbridge isn't the answer - it will just end up with more more grammar school, middle class, faith school kids who take the places and the genuinely poor but clever kids will continue to miss out

I can see the appeal of the idea that all these extra state school students at Oxbridge are coming from middle class homes and grammar schools. It's an easy way to criticise the progress that is being made, without having to say anything too unpleasant. But this isn't what's happening. As a PP said upthread, the target groups are the more disadvantaged, and this is where the recent improvement is, not kids from high performing schools in affluent areas. Stats are here:

www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students/current/disadvantage

I did find, while an undergrad, and frequently think while reading MN education threads, that people who live financially comfortable middle class lives genuinely don’t understand how hugely privileged they are compared to many people. It explains a lot about our society. When surrounded by people like us, we all lose perspective. And there is always someone richer to look to, I know.

Thank you for those statistics. Really heartening to see.

(Don't know about the private school top grade B. It is not as academic a school as where his sisters went but is certainly not top of the pile. They had 100% failure rate for Oxbridge applications the year my twins applied to other universities for example so whether that is anti private school bias or like local state comps due to where we are clued up state parents avoid them and send them out of borough to London academies specialising in Oxbridge, religious schools or out of borough grammars I am not sure. Anyway he is so laid back and happy he certainly does not let it worry him and I got AAB and one of his sisters too - both of us in the days before the A star and it has not stopped his sister and me becoming London lawyers. It odes however illustrate the point that may be we should be looking at grades in the context of results the school gets (as indeed does Bristol university with its contextual list of the 40% "worst" schools - my son's school however does not make that list). They were not taught the wrong syllabus but I suspect the teaching was at fault as my son tends to be good at most exams. Anyway that was over 3 years ago so not an issue and thankfully many law firms' base requirement is AAB and a 2/1 - both of which he has.

I enjoyed a programme "Money Talks" last night with Kathy Burke - she did it well and talked a lot about her own background and interviewed some self made rich people including a gypsy who is worth £300m, some influencers who rent a house in which to take tik tok videos - turnover is millions and a model on Only Fans. Next week episode she will be interviewing people who are very badly off. (It is not about university however)

Of course not all parents who pay for their kids to go to private school expect them to be shovelled into Oxbridge. Many parents pay because they know full well their DCs aren't academic geniuses and therefore need a bit of extra help just to get giid or average results rather than stellar ones. They fear they won't get in the local school among other pupils who have a whole heap of problems.
People pay for all sorts of reasons.

I guess it's just in our moment of madness when we considered private all the schools we looked at were those which were selling their Oxbridge successes.

No. An A* from a local, failing comp shows not only motivation, but the ability to teach oneself and extend learning beyond mixed ability classroom teaching, resilience, ambition and the self-confidence to exceed expectations.

Absolutely this. DD has had to contend with constant teacher changes, supply teachers who don't know the subject at all, disruptive classroom behaviour, teachers who have no time to give extra advice. Then lockdown, where they didn't receive any Zoom lessons and very little input from some of the teachers. The difference between her experience and the teaching and support that friends at a local private school get is breathtaking. It's not just the teaching, it's how to interview and selection exams practice.

She is aiming for Cambridge, neither DH or I went to university, I grew up on a council estate. She is waiting for GCSE results, but the school has run the assessments dreadfully. Whereas the private school was totally organised and the students were given lots of preparation, basically spoonfed.

@SusannaM Sounds exactly like DC's school (tho fortunately my two didn't have to contend with Covid disruption). The differences between the preparation and lack of your DD will get for Cambridge and that which her contemporaries at the fee paying school will get will be breathtaking. You're not wrong! Again, we have experience of this. If you like I can PM you with some more useful experience of how to tackle a Cambridge application. DS did English., and DD applied for Maths but (happily as it turned out) didn't get in, and went to Durham instead. But we learned loads. DS offered to go into his old school to talk about Cambridge but they declined! I feel this is a wasted opportunity. But I guess most schools (and we're not talking about the state grammars etc here, which are so beloved of MN) are just too preoccupied fighting fires than helping students like your DD. I cannot advise on medicine I'm afraid - I think that's a whole specialist kettle of fish!

@SusannaM

No. An A* from a local, failing comp shows not only motivation, but the ability to teach oneself and extend learning beyond mixed ability classroom teaching, resilience, ambition and the self-confidence to exceed expectations.

Absolutely this. DD has had to contend with constant teacher changes, supply teachers who don't know the subject at all, disruptive classroom behaviour, teachers who have no time to give extra advice. Then lockdown, where they didn't receive any Zoom lessons and very little input from some of the teachers. The difference between her experience and the teaching and support that friends at a local private school get is breathtaking. It's not just the teaching, it's how to interview and selection exams practice.

She is aiming for Cambridge, neither DH or I went to university, I grew up on a council estate. She is waiting for GCSE results, but the school has run the assessments dreadfully. Whereas the private school was totally organised and the students were given lots of preparation, basically spoonfed.

It's not "spoon-fed" to have organised teachers and to be given lots of preparation. It's what all schools should be doing.

@SusannaM please do contact your local independent if she decides to apply . Our school helps with interview prep and personal statements for students at schools who don’t have the resources or experience and they also put people in touch with mentors . Also your daughter probably already knows this but there are quite a few state schools educated people who have made vlogs on YouTube of their experience which frankly I think have done more to help encourage applications than many visits , PaigeY is the most well known but there is also Emma Louise , a medic called Magda and a number of others . I would also recommend Molly at Oxford as she has some good tips on applying from a non traditional background and not being supported by school.

My other tip would be to contact Cambridge Admissions and ask which college has links to your local area for example Jesus has a link with the North East, they can arrange for your dd to be invited to open days specifically geared to first generation Cambridge applicants .

Oxbridge should select those students who have the potential to be brilliant. It is in Oxbridge's own best interest to nurture the truly brilliant.

Oxbridge needs to widen its gene pool and take more risks. Oxbridge should select students who have potential to be brilliant rather than settling for the very good polished article whose limitations are more clear.

@Christchurchmum2021 you are completely correct, it drives me mad when people talk of contextual offers. All the offers at Oxford are standard , contextual factors are considered exactly as you explain. So it may get you an interview with a slightly lower admissions test score but there are no lower offers. This is frequently missed in discussions of this nature