Dutch university: absolute mess: anyone with experience?

[Kindheartsandbaronets]

My DD is studying politics and economics at a Dutch uni ( won't say which) and it has been an absolute mess, made worse by the pandemic. She has just finished her second year of a 3 yr course.The university was her choice entirely and she won a scholarship covering her first year fees. She also got offers from British unis but was keener on this one because it is ranked 20th in the world for her subject. I let her make her own choice and things have got steadily worse.

To begin with, it is a lot harder than we anticipated. She had all As at A levels so we thought she would be able to cope. The workload is super intense and half her class have dropped out. The uni went online in March 2020 and has not gone back in person since, so she didn't really make any friends and didn't have much time to get used to the town. Her housing was difficult as all her room mates left due to covid. At one point she considered transferring to a UK uni but all transfers were stopped due to Covid, so she is stuck there.

DD developed depression as well as her long term BF broke up with her, plus the pandemic ofc. We got her counselling and meds. She has just told us that she has not been able to finish all her subjects this semester and therefore will have to do one additional year making her course a 4 yr course! Several people in her class are doing the same. There is now all the additional expense as well ofc, plus she just seems very tired.

Would appreciate any advice. I am just very sad for her right now.

Having been to both Dutch and English universities I would agree that Dutch university is a lot more intense. And with Covid I can see how it can be extra difficult for her. I'm assuming she's not Dutch. So a lot of the other foreign students probably have gone home and foreign students tend to form friendship groups.

Only advice I can give is that there should be help for her but she has to ask. I found in UK universities they where much more lenient in giving extension and it was more obvious how to get extra help. In the Dutch universities she will need to reach out to her mentor or her class teacher, explain her problems and together make a plan. If she gives permission you can be involved in this as well.

Adding a extra year to your studies is far more common in Dutch universities then UK ones I feel. So this is not a failure on her part. It happens a lot.

Will she do an internship? Most Dutch Universities will require a 6 month to 12 month internship. Maybe she can do one back home. It might not be on their list of approved internships but plenty of people do them abroad. Maybe she can find out the requirements and organise one for herself back home. Then she has something to look forward to.

For making friends she should try joining a woman's hockey or volleyball team. Those are the most popular female sports in the Netherlands.

Only experience from a long time ago, but it's not uncommon to "fail" and/or repeat a year at both school and university level. I suspect a much much higher percentage of children in England do A levels than children in the Netherlands do the VWO exams (which you need to be able to go to uni). So not surprised to hear she is struggling despite her As.
But, I felt it's more difficult for foreign students to integrate in England than the other way round.

Sorry, not helpful for your DD but just some of my experience from long time ago..

Oh your poor DD. Have you thought about picking up the phone to the admissions dept of a good uni for her subject in the uk and talking it through with them? Seeing whether she can transfer to a 3 year course and get credit for the first year? It will still mean she has 2 more years, but at least in a more familiar environment closer to home. If it is a uni she already has friends or acquaintances going into 2nd year (maybe kids from her year at school who took a gap year), so much the better. I would start ringing now - clearing is about to start and phones will get increasingly busy when it does (5 July). I would be absolutely candid, my issues at all, and get some advice from the horses mouth. If no joy from one uni, phone another. Best of luck

‘MH issues and all’ that should say!

I have a handful of students (Italian) who are in the Netherlands at uni. Speaking to them (also because DD has been looking at one particular one) the "system" there is pretty similar to the Italian one so they haven't come up against anything unexpected. That system being, perhaps, a little less "pastoral" inclined than what we are used to in the UK. Students are pretty much on their own when it comes to getting through, and, as in Italy, it's not unusual to fail and to repeat.
Not very helpful I know, but ultimately mine are all really happy with the standard of education they're getting which is very high.

Thanks for your kind and lovely response. No, she is not Dutch. We are British Asian. Yes, most of her friends went home to respective countries. In retrospect, choosing a Dutch uni was a terrible decision, but we did not predict the pandemic and as entry was quite low, we did not realise it would be so hard.

Also, I forgot to say this but she also had a gap year before university because of illness, which she recovered from:( So she was just raring to go to uni and then the pandemic hit! I feel so sorry for her because she is going to be graduating two years after her school friends. She feels terrible too. Dutch unis tend to be very cut and dry, and not very supportive.

Her CGPA is 8.0 which I gather is quite good but I am not sure. Unfortunately she is not sporty at all. She joined the choir and Mock UN but she has had to work so hard that she has no time to attend any of these events. I am not sure if it is her or just the entire system which seems completely joyless and terribly difficult.

So she’s finding university course work difficult?
Isn’t university course work supposed to be difficult?
Why hasn’t she got used to the town she lives in? Lockdown ended ages ago in the Netherlands. Maybe getting out and exploring a bit would help her.
I lived in the Netherlands for 5 years, gorgeous country.

Dutch Universities seem to operate on the basis of accepting most applicants with the minimum grades for the course and then letting those who can not keep up fail and drop out. Students are treated as adults and expected to get on with it. Pastoral care is minimal. Those who make it through are very good.

I know several UK students who were attracted by the low fees at Dutch universities but returned to the UK after a year or two. This was mainly because their poor/non existent Dutch meant their social life was limited to other English speaking students. Of course, Dutch students speak English but they revert to Dutch when they are in a majority.

Depending on the course you can transfer from the Dutch university into the second or third year at a UK university.

Yes, pastoral care is fairly rubbish. She wanted to do everything on her own so I left it to her until now. Going to call around unis here in the UK but she is not all that keen to transfer now after 2 years.

@BingBongToTheMoon she has not gone back to the Netherlands after lockdown ended because all her housemates were non-Dutch and they all left for their respective countries. They didnt want to pay expensive house rent for entirely online classes. Classes have not resumed in person but will do in September. She now has to find new housing.

Ahh, sorry I misunderstood.
So, why can’t she transfer her credits to a UK based course?
Is it now”just” the world he’s struggling with?

@Kindheartsandbaronets

Yes, pastoral care is fairly rubbish. She wanted to do everything on her own so I left it to her until now. Going to call around unis here in the UK but she is not all that keen to transfer now after 2 years.

@BingBongToTheMoon she has not gone back to the Netherlands after lockdown ended because all her housemates were non-Dutch and they all left for their respective countries. They didnt want to pay expensive house rent for entirely online classes. Classes have not resumed in person but will do in September. She now has to find new housing.

It does sound like it's just not the right "fit" for her. My students live with Dutch students, and as far as I can see, are totally integrated and have a great social life. None of them came back during the height of Coronavirus lockdowns, apart from for holidays last summer. Maybe look at changing if that's what she wants.

Ah I see she has been in the UK for most of this year then. I think she might have had some of the same problems here in the UK as in the Netherlands. I have heard a lot of UK student complaining about their courses. Studying online is just not the same as in class studying. It's so much harder to keep motivated.

I think if she wants to stay with this course she (you?) need to let go of the very UK mindset that everyone has to finish in the same timeframe. Redoing a year is perfectly acceptable, life happens. It's better she finishes the course right with all the knowledge and experience she needs. I find that in the UK they will try and do anything to make you pass, even if this might not be in your best interest, or tell you to quit. It also sounds like she did not fail her year, she simple was unable to complete all her subjects. So she is missing points and the next year will not give her enough points to finish.

So she might only need to finish one or two subjects in her last year. Have a look at what she needs to finish, then see what the next two years will look like and what she need to move to the fourth year. Maybe she only has to one or two subjects that she can mainly do from home for the last year. Or if she talks to her teaches she might be able to finish things during the summer holidays and hand it in when back. Having a good discussion with her teacher about how and where she can make up the points is important and there might be options she is unaware of.

An 8 is a good average, in my old university only the very best students got a 9, getting a 10 was imposible. I would say if you got a 6 you're close to failing, a 7 then you needed to work harder, an 8 was good, a 9 excellent. It might be slightly different depending on the type of course.

I would also suggest to try and find a house with Dutch housemates if she goes back. It's so easy to fall into that international student bubble and never integrate with the local students.

If at all possible even if she gets no credits from Holland I think she should try to switch a UK 3 year degree. It sounds very difficult where she is and may not be worth the extra year on top of the coming one. I am sorry she has suffered like this - covid 19 has made things so complicated.

Thanks for all the responses. I think I may have given the impression that I was blaming the uni for everything. DD has evaded some of her responsibilities too. It's been a perfect storm of online classes, poor communication, poor motivation, pandemic dread and so on. May have been the same in the UK.
I think GreenMeeple is right in that I may have to resign myself to her doing an extra year. Shit happens!
I am trying to find out more about transfers to UK unis but I think she may not be able to do it because the deadline has passed.

Students are pretty much on their own when it comes to getting through, and, as in Italy, it's not unusual to fail and to repeat.

This is the case in Germany and France as well - members of my close and extended family in both countries have experienced this.

I know that many people looked to other European countries after tuition fees were introduced in England. I have always advised that you get what you pay for.

What you will often find (not always - a young relative has just finished a very specialised degree with a cohort of only 10) is large classes and a sink or swim attitude to getting students through. Because it is not expensive and often students live at home, if you fail a module or an exam, you fail it. IIME, there was next to no mitigation for COVID - unlike here in the UK - where I will be spending what should be my holiday in August marking deferrals because of our “anyone can have any sort of extension because COVID” (extensions are sorted y admin staff who don’t have to endlessly mark …)

Systems of personal tutoring and small group teaching are also pretty rare.

I have several times (NCer) posted on here warning people about university study elsewhere in Europe. It’s tough, much tougher than we’re allowed to be here in the UK. And students don’t then necessarily develop a network of peers and mentors in the country they’re going to work in.

OP your DD needs to speak to her supervisor or head of the degree programme. She probably also needs to be resigned to failing modules/exams. One member of my family has done exceptionally well in their dissertation (a 1.3 where 1 is the highest mark and 5 is the lowest mark) but still has to retake some of last semesters exams before he can graduate.

But it sounds as though a year out or a look at whether your DD could complete her degree in the UK might be considered.

Dutch Universities seem to operate on the basis of accepting most applicants with the minimum grades for the course and then letting those who can not keep up fail and drop out.

AFAIK , the only degree programmes which limit initial enrolment are Medicine and some Engineering courses.

Look, as in many things on life, you get what you pay for. Most mainland Europe universities are not funded for pastoral care. It could be argued that this is a reasonable strategy - universities are not there to hold students’ hands. But the British system has always worked differently - the model of the one-to-one tutoring of Oxfords d Cambridge, in which both disciplinary knowledge and moral tutoring were delivered together. Sadly, that ideal no longer exists …

The Dutch education system is a meritocracy. It is very much sink or swim.

It's not about conferring advantage.

Lot of uni degrees in England would not be a uni degree in the Netherlands. Dutch friends won't believe me when I tell them you can do a uni degree in shoe fashion here in England

You should be able to find plenty of UK universities which would accept credit transfer / advanced entry in clearing next month. (Or before, but all the ads and contacts will be unmissable then). Agree though that time taken on degree isn't a big deal on the Continent. (Partly because degrees are cheaper to deliver, per head. And they are cheaper to deliver partly because they don't emphasize pastoral care).
You could argue that students shouldn't need the pastoral care but it helps the sense of community too. Would be a shame if she didn't enjoy her university days. I'd be inclined to go for a fresh start.

@Notagardener

Lot of uni degrees in England would not be a uni degree in the Netherlands. Dutch friends won't believe me when I tell them you can do a uni degree in shoe fashion here in England

And your point is?

@MrsIsobelCrawley oh, I wish that were the case here in the UK!

I think part of the difference is that the Netherlands - in common with a number of much smaller European countries (Finland springs to mind) is a much less class divided country, with a more even spread of advantage and aspiration.

In the UK since WWII and the introduction of the welfare state, we’ve tended to try to use education as a means of conferring or spreading advantage eg grammar schools. But that system was laid over deep divisions, which have never been healed.

July2, just pointing out some more differences between Dutch and English unis (and therefore the people attending them). There is a further point but will get more abuse if I spell it out.

@Notagardener

July2, just pointing out some more differences between Dutch and English unis (and therefore the people attending them). There is a further point but will get more abuse if I spell it out.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear them and you won't get any abuse from me. Universities in the UK seem to be in the business of making money imo.

DSD did part of her Erasmus year at a university in Spain. Didn't particularly enjoy it. The main difference (to her) were how many students either lived at home or went home every weekend.

And how it wasn't unusual to fail modules or have to re-take the year.

*was not were

God for an edit button!

Your poor DD. The last couple of years have been so rubbish for students and your DD has had the added complication of being stuck in the UK and breaking up with her boyfriend. No wonder she's been depressed. My DD has friends in the second year at two different unis in Amsterdam - one from France and one from the UK so neither Dutch. They have both stayed there throughout the pandemic with few visits home. I think your DD needs to decide if she wants to chuck it all in and find a place on a course in the UK or if she wants to go back and stick it out for another two years. If it were my DD (and she's had a few bumps in the road - ended up leaving uni in the UK to enroll in one here in France) I would stress that nothing is ever wasted - so even she ends up back in the UK she can think of her time in Holland as an extended Erasmus. However if she decides to stick it out I would encourage her to go back and live there - because I think it's pointless being at a distance in a difficult system and not even living in the country. These are exceptional times and she's certainly not the only student who's struggling. What I've learned from my DD's experience it's not a disaster to take time out to get your head together while you get back on the right track. to you both.