BSc Vs MSc data science

[BuffySummersReportingforSanity]

I am in the middle of a Level 4 Apprenticeship course on data analysis, funded and supported by my employer and enjoying it very much. I already have undergrad and master's degrees in other disciplines from academic universities.

I now have the option of either continuing my course onto a BSc data science with the same provider, or applying for and completing an MSc apprenticeship with another uni/provider. Neither uni is ranked as one of the most prestigious academically, but a fully funded degree I can do alongside well-paid work is not to be sneezed at, and if I really wanted to chase academic prestige on this subject, I'd have to go and do a full time MSc at one of the Russell Group and pay out of pocket, which I'm not really in a position to do right now.

Both courses would take me about the same amount of time. WWYD, BSc or MSc?

I think PresentingPercy objects more to the level of qualification I already have rather than my age. (PP, feel free to correct if I have mistook.) I don't agree with that argument - I'm not sitting in an 18yo's seat, and in any case the model that you go to uni as a young person, do one degree and then you're done is no longer fit for purpose - but I understand the impulse behind it.

Economically we need more people to do multiple bouts of learning and reskilling throughout life - that is one of the impetuses behind apprenticeships in the first place, as you say.

The only reason to not do the MSc would be because you can’t get a loan for a masters if you already have one - so if you thought you might want to do a further masters and specialise, you should do the BSc so you’d be eligible for funding for a masters.

But given you already have a masters you’re not eligible for that funding anyway, so no reason not to do the MSc!

Good luck with the course, I’m on a PGCert in Data Science atm! My uni is awful but the course is very interesting

I recently recruited someone with the MSc in computer Science with data analytics from York. She did the whole thing online around her lab job. Would something like that work for you?

Thanks for the heads up on that course @ODFOx. It looks good, although I'd probably have to pay myself as it's not an apprenticeship (my employer will happily pay from apprenticeship levy fund, but it might be much harder to extract other cash from them). An option I didn't know about though and definitely worth looking into.

Ooh. And I've just discovered that Sussex has an MSc programme and also has 14 £10k scholarships to give to people underrepresented in analytics and AI, including women.

@PresentingPercy

I would be seriously wondering why this valuable apprenticeship hadn’t gone to an 18 year old who had not already done a degree and a masters. Do what you want and makes best sense for you.

A lot of employers only fund degrees if you have previous academic experience. It’s so shit.

Especially. It is. Especially for 18 year olds who have never had a chance. No one ever thought degree apprenticeships were set up for adults holding post grad qualifications who want a career change.

@PresentingPercy I agree with your point in apprenticeships where 30 year olds work alongside 18 years olds but these are quite rare in my experience.
A lot of employers will pay for further qualifications (including a flexible degree) should they face a talent shortage. Now if the qualification constitutes a full degree calling it an apprenticeship enables the employer to receive some government funding(among other things). Where I work these have been people who have gone on to receive a specialist postgrad degree which builds on their previous experience, like the OP. An 18 year old wouldn't be of much use here.

So an MSc in health science and public policy for a clinician to become a policymaker. Or an MSc in Cybersecurity for security analysts with a BSc and relevant experience. Literally not the same BSc as an undergrad.

There are also places where I have worked which offered apprenticeships to autistic people and the average age was 35 but that's a different category altogether.

There are lots of opportunities and there's no such things as someone 'not having a chance' given that most apprenticeship applicants (successful or not) who go on to do a degree in the field will succeed as the presence of degree apprenticeships indicate a dearth of talent.

I feel more sorry for those in certain industries where there are SO MANY people applying that working for free has become the norm. No paid apprenticeships there, oh no!

Over 25 year olds starting apprenticeships is 47%. Latest stats from the government. There are differing levels of apprenticeship with degree level being the highest but there are nearly double the number of mature apprentices when compared to 19-24 year olds.

Go for the MSc OP, if you feel ready for it academically. It’s a fantastic qualification to have. We’ve been trying to recruit for data scientists and the salaries these people can command are huge.

I'm going to apply for the Sussex MSc and the scholarship as well, I think. Worth a shot.

I can tell you what will happen if I don't do the course at all or as an apprenticeship, PresentingPercy. It won't cause a younger person with no degree to get the slot, or a new entry level apprentice role to open up. A slightly larger proportion of our apprenticeship levy pot will simply be wasted, that's all. We hire for apprentices already, as many as we need, and anybody in our business, degree or no degree, who came forward with a request to do a business relevant apprenticeship with clear added value would get it approved straightaway. Like many organisations we really struggle to use our whole levy pot, because there's only so many apprentice roles we can feasibly support.

@PresentingPercy you clearly haven’t read my post.
The number of apprenticeships based on age is irrelevant - the type of degree is.
If the majority of those apprenticeships are for master’s degrees that’s your answer right there.
Anybody can to university in the U.K as you get student loans based on your family income.
Why would employers pay en masse for a first degree when there are already so many with them floating about? It is the specialist qualifications that they need.of course if more people chose to take for example a BSc in data science instead of history or politics you wouldn’t find any apprenticeships for it anymore. It’s just supply and demand.
People who couldn’t go to uni because of bad A-levels wouldn’t get into degree apprenticeships. You need evidence of academic ability because a degree is again an academic study and has nothing to do with whether you’re a good worker or not.

And the point you are missing then is the mis selling of degree apprenticeships to young people. I’ve no doubt people with useless degrees want to retrain but they general population believes these apprenticeships were for young people and thought employers would take them on. Of course there’s room for retaining but the stats show it disadvantages the young who are told apprenticeships are an alternative to going to university. Clearly this is not true for many.

It also shows plenty of degrees need to be culled. The country is wasting money on them and then paying again for re-qualification. How stupid is that?

Update just in case this proves useful for anyone else. City has confirmed I'd qualify for their MSc apprenticeship but their teaching is all day Friday, which is a challenge for me from a childcare POV. A number of unis have full scholarships for underrepresented groups in data science including women, but they're mostly for F2F study. Bath have a fully online MSc Business Analytics that has gone on the list.

@PresentingPercy in that case your problem is the ‘mis-selling and PR’ (what does this even mean? Bad advise from a school career adviser? Television adverts?) you seem to have some strong personal experience driving this.

1. You are conflating retraining and upskilling. Postgrad apprenticeships are UPSKILLING meaning that they are not for people with ‘useless degrees’. They are for people developing specialist skills in an area they already have experience in. Which had been explained and which you seem to have ignored

2. Degree apprenticeships and apprenticeships are not the same thing. A lot of apprenticeships come with professional qualifications (not degrees). These are useful for people who are not academically inclined. There is the option to do a degree but generally speaking they’re not marketed as ‘degree apprenticeships’. As people can choose whether or not they want to do the top ups.

At the end of the day degree apprenticeships are not an alternative route for people who can’t get into uni because of their grades. And those who can get apprenticeships wouldn’t have done a ‘useless degree’ anyway.

Try reading the letter from Lord Baker in The times today. He says: “the apprenticeship levy should be completely rewritten nand focussed on the ages 16-24. Too many apprenticeships are being offered to 49, 50 and 60 year olds, which is really adult retraining”.

I completely agree with him.

I know degree apprenticeships are not for les qualified DC. They should be for well qualified DC has an alternative to university. I am sorry you do not understand what PR and is-selling mean. It means that these apprenticeships (in whatever guise) have been touted as a good alternative to university. Many ‘dc’ cannot access them as they are going to adults. it is that simple. Lord Baker gets it, so I assume you might too if you stopped to analyse what young people really need. It is not adults getting the apprenticeships.

I have no axe to grind. I am just interested in young people Ewing supported over and above adults with higher degrees getting supported. the money needs to be diverted to the former who have suffered most in the pandemic.

40, 50 etc..... Not 49....

@PresentingPercy again you are missing the main point.
adults and school leavers are usually not competing for the same apprenticeships. That is the flaw in your argument. You are saying that adults to be retrained are taking up spaces meant for school leavers. But nobody would fund a school leaver to do an MSc, which is what adult apprenticeships in my experience do . Also this is not retraining which is making people start from the bottom in a completely different field. It is people in management positions gaining more qualifications and then becoming even more senior.

Now , Lord Baker’s point relates to the ‘apprenticeship levy’ specific pot of money being used for this purpose. That is a different story. Maybe the government should only allow apprenticeships for first degrees and not fund the rest. Maybe there should be a different scheme with a different name for postgrad quals.

But neither of these are going to increase the amount of apprenticeships available for DC. It’s supply and demand. If there are enough people with a relevant degree then the company won’t need to offer an apprenticeship. So to get what you want you’d have to make it harder to get a degree on your own dime (and even student loans are more of a graduate tax as pp have mentioned).

The world of work as OP mentioned is changing. Gone are when days when people qualified in one thing , did that for 30 years and then retired. We are not only facing more change but living for longer, meaning that people will be working into their 60’s and 70’s .
Our current model of talent development and job creation is outdated and needs serious rethinking

Well Lord Baker agrees with me. The whole argument is MORE apprenticeships for young people. Adult retraining is not the same. I fully understand what I am saying. Perhaps read his letter?

Is mainly the use of the title 'apprenticeship' for the 'upskilling of already educated people already in employment in a particular field' variety that is the problem, perhaps? Because is it really the same sort of thing? - doesn't an 'apprenticeship' imply that your employer provides at least an element of the teaching required, rather than paying for you to get all of that from a separate provider because the main / sole point of you doing it (from the employer's POV is to bring new skills to your existing workplace, for the employer's benefit? Could this not just be the employer sponsoring a course with the understanding that the knowledge gained is to be used for the benefit of the business, rather than hanging the 'apprenticeship' label on it?

Final update just in case this proves useful to someone else some day: after reviewing every MSc in data science and analytics out there plus every Data Science MSc apprenticeship, I've settled on the Exeter Data Science MSc apprenticeship. They have three days a month teaching and a cohort in Central London, and they have a much higher ranked computer science department than most of the other options.

I also looked at UWL and City, who had apprenticeships close to me, but they all did all their teaching on a Friday which just didn't work for me practically. I also seriously considered making a bid for the company to fund the non-apprenticeship Bath Business Analytics MSc, which was delivered virtually, but the advantages of doing the course as an apprenticeship, other than better efficiency in using our levy pot, is that it gives the employer a specific stake in my success and a contract to grant me time and opportunities which I think is needed given that I'm carving out a new space.

One other thing I've learned: fees for these courses vary A LOT based on the prestige of the university. Imperial does an online-only MSc in analytics and the fees are £40k, just because it can get away with charging global students that much for the prestige.

That sounds fantastic. Exeter is great for computer science. My employer takes on huge numbers of apprentices straight from school in distinct roles that are earmarked as entry level. We also use them to up skill current colleagues and I think that is good. Lots are people who didn't have the best start educationally and to give them that chance to step up in their careers and gain qualifications is really important. As is making sure generally in the UK we do whatever we need to avoid a massive skills shortage, particularly post Brexit. We won't just get this from school leavers.

Thanks @bananananadakrie. I'm really chuffed that after googling the internet inside out I've actually found a course that ticks all the boxes and is at a good uni to boot. That seemed impossible for a bit. I am a bad person, but I would have just cringed every time I had to read the words "Anglia Ruskin" on my CV. Also really excited about starting it. Employer has already given me the OK in principle, so just need to get the application and paperwork sorted.

Also need to get on with my existing data projects and my Python code challenges

Good luck with your MSc(s) @thelastlotus

@MarchingFrogs exactly... everything falls under 'apprenticeship' because that is what it is called to get funding. When people aren't actually apprentices in the original sense of the word of 14 year olds learning alongside the master blacksmith/baker/whatever.

@BuffySummersReportingforSanity glad you have found a good course! Thanks and good luck - our paths may well cross in real life someday ;)

@BuffySummersReportingforSanity

Thanks *@bananananadakrie*. I'm really chuffed that after googling the internet inside out I've actually found a course that ticks all the boxes and is at a good uni to boot. That seemed impossible for a bit. I am a bad person, but I would have just cringed every time I had to read the words "Anglia Ruskin" on my CV. Also really excited about starting it. Employer has already given me the OK in principle, so just need to get the application and paperwork sorted.

Also need to get on with my existing data projects and my Python code challenges

Good luck with your MSc(s) @thelastlotus

So glad you found something that you are happy with. As an employer of science grads and up I'm always pleased to find applicants who have sought out a route to professional and academic enhancement that fits really well into their career aspirations. Good luck!