Computer Science - DS needs help

[fernsandlilies]

DS is in year 12 and wants to apply to uni next year to do Computer Science. He's studying Maths, Further Maths and a humanities subject, and will be doing a CS-based EPQ next year.

He's predicted A*-A for all subjects, and has good GCSEs, so he wants to apply to a couple of aspirational places, which will be very competitive indeed.

The real problem is that he doesn't have anything to write about in order to show his interest in CS, and he's just flailing and floundering about on his own.

He's done bits of coding by himself , but he always seems to aim too high, and can't possibly achieve the thing he has imagined. He has picked up some Python, and has tried to learn a bit of Unity, but when he looks at the code to try to modify a piece of the program, it is just too hard. Tutorials seem to be either very rudimentary, or very advanced. Raspberry pi is still in its box from Xmas.

I found him things like Bebras, and Cyber Challenge, and he did ok, but there isn't much to talk about.

Mostly he just watches YouTube videos of exciting coding projects that other people have done.

he also says he can't choose a uni course because he doesn't understand what the module titles mean or what they are about.

His college tutor is supposed to help with this sort of thing, but she has not even replied to the emails he's sent her previously.

Please can any of you wonderful people advise? Where can he look for guidance about what he should be doing now? What are the obvious things that an aspiring CS student would be doing? How can he get more detail about the uni modules?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Interesting thread. I think my DS would love a CS course at Uni. He is currently saving up to buy the component parts of a computer so he can build one himself from scratch. I have no knowledge of this so hope he's not going to be wasting his money. Has anyone else's DS done this (with success)? Sorry to derail thread a bit, but I suppose it's all relevant

Yes, my eldest did. Very effectively. And that's as much as I know or understand!

My youngest is doing something similar, only he's building his out of a Raspberry Pi and parts cannibalised from unwanted tech that family members have given to him rather than put in the bin. And that's as much as I know or understand!

Eldest ds's desk looks like a high-tech Mission Control. Youngest ds's desk looks like Prof Brainstawm's shed.

He's done bits of coding by himself , but he always seems to aim too high, and can't possibly achieve the thing he has imagined.

I write software, but tbh I'd be flummoxed if I had to think of a coding project I could do alone nowadays ... some things are simpler than in the old days but others are more complicated because expectations are higher. But doing something 'simple' can be informative and its own sort of challenge. In a different field, DD decided after GCSEs to design an object-avoiding robot without using any microprocessors. For her EPQ she did one with ... that's includes a sort of focussed programming task as well as the engineering. (I think arduino controllers use C , which is a sort of fundamental language I'd imaging most serious CS students would still encounter, not sure about the Lego-based robotics stuff) ... maybe something like that might be fun and get more tangible results?

Thank you so much for this further advice, particularly those who have come back to the thread.

Errol, I think you're absolutely right, and one of the first things I'm going to say is that DS should downscale his aims so that he can have something tangible. You asked about his EPQ - unfortunately that's also completely unfocussed at the moment, he doesn't know where to start, but this thread has helped me with how to get him to clarify his thoughts.

marchingfrogs, thank you for that! I just could not find any courses outside Oxford and St Andrews which offered the chance to combine CS and Philosophy. I will do a lot more googling. Of course, as someone said upthread, it should be DS who does the research, but the reality is that I need to help him get through this part, he is feeling so hopeless and overwhelmed.

bigfloweryblouse if it helps, even my hapless DS managed to build his own computer - he followed the guidance in an article in a PC magazine, and the results were very successful.

As well as Smallpiece, EDT run courses and experiences for students interested in STEM including CS. Debate chamber also run some excellent CS week long courses but these are paid for.

EDT also run a work placement programme (Year in industry programme) aimed principally at students who are not exactly sure what field they want to go into and wanting to try working in a field for a year first. Could be a good option? Placement numbers may be reduced due to COVID but they are still there. I can't praise it enough, they provide a mentor throughout the year, masterclasses in subjects related to the field and the world of work and also an optional maths course for those that might need to keep their maths up during the gap year.

Oxford University CS page also has an extensive list of activities for potential CS students to get into. You don't have to be a potential Oxford Applicant to access the page or the activities. I'm not sure if its running at the moment but they also run a one day course for year 12 students called Further Maths what next for talented mathematicians who might not be sure what direction to go in.

Please don't be put off by the students winning national competitions or coding robots. What he needs is a keen interest in some aspects of the subject (and good maths). DS1 has always been planning to study CS at Uni but only really got into coding on his gap year. There is so much more to the subject. He does need to understand why it interests him though and why he wants to study it. Oh, and if he doesn't know what some of the module titles mean then just google them, we did :)

Good luck!

DS 1 also wanted to Study CS and Philosophy and was stuck with the Oxford and St Andrews options. We were also wary of the combined degree type offerings suggested. Some Unis such as Birmingham are offering Liberal Arts plus a Stem so you can do liberal arts with major in CS but again we were wary. Alternatively some, notably Warwick, allow you to do one module each year from outside your dept. DS though has decided to stick to a CS degree and continue to study philosophy for fun! Hope that helps.

Why is it so hard to get a 17yr old to actually think about all this?

Because it's probably the worst age to decide what the rest of your life will look like ?

Education - certainly in the UK - is centred very much around ensuring teachers have jobs, rather than the population is well served by having access to the resources to study what, when and where they need to.

The idea that you've "done learning" at the age of 22 is laughable.

However, if the system doesn't fit you, you have to fit the system. Once you've learned that lesson, it all falls into place.

I don't want to derail the thread with this point but surely you don't need to decide what the rest of your life will look like! I know its a very un MN like concept but, unless you have an idea what career you are interested in, why not just the next three to five years

My son is planning to study CS and isn't quite like some of the others on here. I found it reassuring to put the word out among people working in different aspects of CS - they pretty much all said as long as he keeps going with the maths element, the individual course was much less crucial. I don't actually think a gap year is a terrible idea, maybe not if you're doing a mathematics degree, but I wouldn't think that would be a failure. Is he applying for jobs or placements at all? There have been some online sessions from various places that ds has attended and these have definitely helped him - he even opened a book someone had recommended [gasp]

DS1's Uni were happy to defer his place. I agree I don't think a gap year is necessarily a bad thing for CS and better than starting a course he doesn't enjoy or struggles with.

Statistics degree.

It involve maths and coding.

I work in this field and the skills are very sought after. Jobs are extremely well paid.

There will of course be prospective students like Aurea’s DS, but I also know of others, recently graduated and already in very high earning private sector CS jobs, who did nothing CS related except for gaming until their second year of a natural science and maths degree. Programming itself is part of most STEM degrees although usually requires quite a lot of self teaching. I agree that statistics in a degree adds choice for future CS / data science careers.

Fernsandlillies , your DS is showing interest even though he has n’t progressed much on the technical side. It might be helpful for him to pinpoint what computing project outputs he finds exciting to understand his interests. Perhaps consider a natural science options type degree like the one at Durham. He can then do maths, CS and philosophy.

meant natural sciences or maths degree

Data science definitely worth considering, maybe also MORSE (Maths, Operational Research, Statistics and Economics).
Also pay some attention to how flexible the different universities are: if he's not quite sure about where his eventual interests lie, then it may be an advantage to study somewhere where two or three different degrees share most of the same first year courses, and it is possible to transfer between them.

I think it is pretty daunting sometimes even for an experienced programmer to pick up, e.g., Unity and make progress. Modern programming environments can be very complicated as they're filled with menu options for professionals so it can be hard for a beginner to see which things are important and which things you can ignore. If you're aiming too high, the answer is simple: aim lower! Learn the absolute basics, spend time tinkering, and that will be plenty to show your interest in the subject on your personal statement (and find out if you really are interested in the subject). I don't think your PS needs to have flashy sounding things on it for a CS admissions tutor to understand what you've done. Don't give up! But traditionally in computer programming you do need to learn things by yourself, spend time messing about, read how things are supposed to work, bash your head against a brick wall until you make progress... It's all part of it. If you hate that process, then there will be a lot more of it in your future, and I still have to go through it myself almost every day. There is loads of information available on the internet, but it can be hard to know where to get started.
My own recommendation would be to stick with python. Try to learn it as well as you can and then doing fun things becomes easier, there's loads of documentation available. If you want some programming problems, Project Euler projecteuler.net is a good place to look. You might find it a bit dry and maths-y.
Feel free to send me a private message if you think that's appropriate and he has follow up questions. I'm a computer programmer, and my daughter has just successfully applied for compsci at university this year, so I might be able to answer some of them.

Some decent resources on the Oxford CS website: www.cs.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/why_oxford/background_reading.html

He'd like a course that has bits of linguistics, bits of philosophy, bits of game design, and a lot of maths, but all in the context of CS.

There are lots of modules within a CS degree that cover that. Human computer Interaction can incorporate a lot of those.

I think he needs to work on coding. I know Python is a 'real' language used in the real world but I'm partial to small basic to learn coding.

It's a free download and quite intuitive, you start by moving a turtle around a screen.

smallbasic-publicwebsite.azurewebsites.net/

It was written for primary school children but you can use it for quite sophisticated programs.

Playing around with a raspbery pi is also useful and some places do holiday clubs for teenagers.

Yenka has a really fun flowchart software, you basically write a dance routine for a character and the animated character dances your input.

www.yenka.com/computing/

As he is doing maths he might be interested in Maxima - it's maths software and personally I am not a fan but it does do what it should.

I'd suggest he starts with Small basic and write a program to solve some simple maths problems eg finding a square root or solving simultaneous equations and keep a journal of what he liked, didn't, challenges etc - this would work towards his EPQ and gives him something to write on his UCAS form.

Has he looked at some of the free online university short courses, like edX? He might find it easier to learn Python etc with a structured course. There might also be other courses that catch his eye to help him consider where his interests lie.

edX computer science courses page:
www.edx.org/course/subject/computer-science

there are so many really helpful and supportive posts on this thread - I'm blown away!

Lovely to hear about the excellent achievements of other DC, and some very practical ideas for DS to try. Thank you everyone.

I agree that he might be suited to a different degree.. How about economics? Combines maths with humanities..

I echo others that he will be up against people like my DS who live and breathes computers. DS age 14 has already built.various pcs, can code in various languages, has built a load of stuff n 3d animation, has set up various fake networks, done ethical hacking, the list goes on.

Nothing to do with school by the way, he just spends a lot of his free time on stuff like this and believe me with no encouragement from me as I would rather he played outside!! 😆

University comp sci departments still do seem to say 'no prior experience required'. So I'm not sure how much applicants are 'up against' each other in terms of what they've already done.

I agree with PP. Computer science is such a broad field. Its application requires a range of skill sets from ‘the live and breathe computers from an early age’ type to those who have broader perspective and abilities. The latter group may actually be more innovative and lateral thinking in application. The OP’s DS appears to be one of those. However he needs to have an idea as to whether he has the patience and mindset to spend the hours required acquiring technical competence that includes coding and is sufficiently autodidactic not to be frustrated by the trial and error component. Especially as it will initially be a steep learning curve. That’s why it is worth spending time trying out some of the suggested short courses or projects.

We have never encouraged DSs obsession with computers, quite the opposite. We "live in the real world" and like to be outdoors a lot.
Our other DC are all teachers or NHS professionals (as are DH and I). Despite this, youngest DS has dedicated his life to meddling with models (which he codes to do things) and fixing up old computers. He adored raspberry pi growing up, at 11 he booked himself onto the Barclays coding workshops. He taught himself python, then C+ and others (I don't know the names!).
He begged me to help him apply for the cyberfirst residential study weeks, then the cyberfirst advanced one. He also went to a Smallpiece Trust residential on software engineering. He is a total tech geek, but even so, he is by far the least geeky of his friends, they all live and breathe code. The only time they go outside is to play Pokemon go.
I don't know that your DS is showing that level of love for his subject and feel he might be better off doing something like health informatics or some sort of data analyst course? From what I've heard, it sounds like computer science is pretty heavy on the coding.

I’m not sure it sends the right message that doing compsci requires an all consuming youthful obsession with computers and never going outside. I don’t think that describes most of my colleagues. You can also spend all day in your room using a computer and be stereotypically geeky and not be at all suited to computer science. Nor do I think finding some unspecified programming problems a bit tricky should condemn you to having to find another subject. The admissions pages of the compsci departments will give you a better idea, and most don’t seem to expect you arrive with much experience. Given CS has become so competitive in recent years you likely will need some very good A level grades (and for Oxbridge be perform well on some very hard maths entrance exams), and I do think you should explore your aptitude for and interest in the subject before applying, but I’d take some of the gate keeping with a pinch of salt.