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Russell group Unis described as 'elite' in the press?

55 replies

mids2019 · 18/04/2021 08:48

Does increasing reference of the Russell group in the media mean post 92 universities that aren't in should be worried about their status?

There are a number of unis such as Bath, St Andrews, Loughboroigh etc that aren't included and certainly back in my day 20 years ago would have been regarded as one of a number of universities that were below Oxbridge in terms of reputation.

The group is selective in terms of research funding I believe but certainly the term does seem to gaining traction in the public's mond.

OP posts:
chopc · 18/04/2021 19:16

And out of interest what is so good about St Andrews? It doesn't have a very good graduate employability score. I recall my friend got a place in clearing for it 25 years ago and that was the first I heard of it

mids2019 · 18/04/2021 19:23

@bowbridge

The guardian has an anti elitist agenda as a newspaper so I think you can possibly expect some differences to the times league for example.

League tables are interesting in themselves as I guess they depend on the exact metrics used.

Maybe that's why older universities are trying to find labels to define themselves in order to 'protect' themselves against league table positioning (which can be a bit vicarious)?

OP posts:
mids2019 · 18/04/2021 19:26

@PresentingPercy

Who were the original 13?

OP posts:
mids2019 · 18/04/2021 19:38

As St Andrew's is the 3rd oldest university in the western world is some of the prestige derived from age? (A mini Scottish oxbridge). I know a local politicians daughter who went there and I think it has a reasonable politics degree. I think the royal connection doesn't do any harm.

OP posts:
Xenia · 18/04/2021 20:28

There was no RG when I went as I am too old. I was rejected by Durham and Bristol (and did not try Oxbridge) and went to Manchester. I am not sure the pecking order list today is very different from then 1970s.

it is entirely about how hard places are to get in; same with jobs and pay and even life and marriage. The pretty nice girl will get the better husband. The person with skills not one else has like Beckham at football or some of the best lawyers and doctors or whatever are rare and get higher pay. The jobs we all can do (I clean every day - it is not very hard to do) are lower paid. The universities easy to get into tend to attract people who could not get into the harder ones.

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 19/04/2021 00:37

St Andrew's is the 3rd oldest university in the western world

Nineteenth oldest. Where did you get third from?

PresentingPercy · 19/04/2021 08:45

Birmingham, Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, Durham, Edinburgh, UCL, LSE, Nottingham, St Andrews, Warwick and York.

These were described as the elite universities by the Sutton Trust some years ago now.

I think a few are recently elite. When I was at school, Nottingham, York, Warwick and Birmingham especially were seen as exactly the same as Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Sussex, Kent, Kings etc. It shows how perceptions change and there are shifts in elites.

Piggywaspushed · 19/04/2021 11:32

That does depend on subject : they did enter RG later some of them. York and Warwick were always 'Oxbridge reject' unis. Always very highly regarded for Eng and history (and Warwick maths etc too)

I think it depends on subject and miliu/location.

Probably explains why York entered the RG.

I think Kent has declined . I agree that it was once as highly regarded as York, etc.

ClaudiaWankleman · 19/04/2021 11:49

30 are not elite

UK universities as a whole are pretty elite when compared to the quality of university education globally. I get that it seems ridiculous to call such a large percentage of UK HE providers elite, but they are when you compare the quality of education to that elsewhere. I think the difference is especially pronounced at undergrad level.

Piggywaspushed · 19/04/2021 13:57

mliieu

Piggywaspushed · 19/04/2021 13:57

OFGS milieu

Piggywaspushed · 19/04/2021 14:01

Tbh percy all the list you mention would get an 'ooooo' from most people , except perhaps Kent and maybe Sussex but even those most people would regard as at the top end.

I always have to check Sussex/Surrey and Southampton for RG.!

Kent was an early trailblazer in film and TV studies as well as being big for MFL and social sciences (along with Essex). Perhaps the sneering at 'media' and the sad decline of language and Europeanness has contributed to the waning of Essex and Kent, reputationally.

I am wondering whether elite just now means (apart from the obvious ones) good for maths , law, medicine and the sciences. That's where all the funding and emphasis is going.

Piggywaspushed · 19/04/2021 14:02

It's not just the ST deciding they are elite, mind : there is a methodology which presumably led (originally) to the inclusion of Warwick and the exclusion of Manchester.

mids2019 · 19/04/2021 20:07

Is the 'new' elite going to become oxbridge, London and 2/3 others?
With WP making increasing impact could we see a few unis having entrants with similar A level profiles producing a new elite sphere?

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Daisysway · 19/04/2021 21:56

There seems to be enough high calibre students around.. I read somewhere that 48000 achieved grades of A plus in at least 3A levels...so all with grades high enough to apply to Oxbridge but under 5k of these go to Oxbridge.

My dd is at Warwick and I was really surprised at the calibre of qualifications of her housemates..there are a couple of international students but most of the homebased students have 2A*As...interestingly I think over 1/2 the students come from London which I found surprising given Warwick is an out of town campus.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/04/2021 22:10

@mids2019

Is the 'new' elite going to become oxbridge, London and 2/3 others? With WP making increasing impact could we see a few unis having entrants with similar A level profiles producing a new elite sphere?
Maybe, up to a point. But the 'elite' can vary considerably by subject.
memberofthewedding · 19/04/2021 22:13

Years ago there were not nursing degrees, social work degrees etc. You became qualified via another route. Ditto with primary school teachers in the main.

This is true of a number of professions. I qualified in librarianship during the 1960s but found my qualifications becoming devalued in the late 1970s when degrees in "Library Science" were being offered by the New universities. I returned to education via an access course and it was only then I became aware that there was a league table of universities. I had my eye on a course at Manchester but was warned by other students on the course that I "would not get my nose in there".

They were quite miffed when I actually got an offer at the interview! No A levels, but I had sent samples of my writing ahead and made sure i had done my homework on the course content.

mids2019 · 19/04/2021 23:09

@Daisysway

That's nearly a 10 to 1 ratio.

Does that mean you have many many Oxbridge calibre students distributed amongst a number of universities.

It seems to be that if we wish to have an elitist higher education system we are pressured to redefine elite unis (Oxbridge had this title for centuries) or we are saying around 10% of our highest achievers are 'lucky' enough to get into Oxford or Cambridge.

A combination of increasing number of pupils gaining high grade qualifications and widening participation schemes will mean high flyers are dispersed amongst a number of universities.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 19/04/2021 23:51

high flyers are dispersed amongst a number of universities.

They always have been

ErrolTheDragon · 19/04/2021 23:52

Which is a good thing

Needmoresleep · 20/04/2021 06:48

Back in the late 80's when I was working abroad, Warwick had a clear business plan including an international recruitment focus, and a determination to forge links with industry. Even a few years ago when DS went to an open day it seems to have retained that focus. The main talk, which we attended together, was little short of a sales pitch. I then went to the overseas study talk and was impressed. A large network of Universities worldwide and, at the time, had the largest Erasmus programme in the UK. In the end DS was rejected despite strong (4xA*) predictions, whilst someone he knew received an early acceptance. My guess was that this boy was multi lingual, and Warwick wanted students who were interested and qualified to take up the reciprocal places overseas.

International rankings give credit for international links, such as the number of international staff and students. I understand this is why the National University of Singapore gives good scholarships to UK students.

St Andrews too, has recruited strongly from overseas including Europe and the US, whilst London Universities such as the LSE and Imperial know they sink or swim on their recruitment of high quality international students and staff. Several top Universities: Cambridge, LSE etc have decided not to expand significantly in part, presumably, to avoid diluting their "brand".

Other Universities have taken a different tack. I can't help wondering whether Bristol's drive to expand, including a second campus, is a mistake, though that may depend of whether they then have the funds to run recruitment drives for both strong staff and students.

What I would like to see is better clarity from the Government. In many economically successful regions, whether in the US, Germany or Singapore, it is not just the quality of top tier Universities that make the difference, though obviously spin off research from places like Oxford and Imperial are important. It is the quality of local provision, the community colleges in the US, or ex-polys here, and the extent to which they meet the needs of local employers, that will really drive our economy. It does not really matter whether Kent or York are in the RG. It does matter that employers in Huddersfield are able to recruit the staff they need, and that these staff can access further training as skill requirements evolve. .

LostToucan · 20/04/2021 07:51

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne

St Andrew's is the 3rd oldest university in the western world

Nineteenth oldest. Where did you get third from?

St Andrews is the third oldest university in the English-speaking world.
NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 20/04/2021 08:22

@LostToucan

St Andrews is the third oldest university in the English-speaking world.

So what? OP said it's the third oldest in the western world. It isn't. I was just correcting that.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/04/2021 08:25

That's probably 'where the third' came from - right number, wrong category.Smile

LostToucan · 20/04/2021 08:28

[quote NoNotHimTheOtherOne]@LostToucan

St Andrews is the third oldest university in the English-speaking world.

So what? OP said it's the third oldest in the western world. It isn't. I was just correcting that.[/quote]
You asked for clarification and didn’t correct it, so I did.

No need to be snippy.

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