Return to university

[SouthCoastShell]

I've just watched all of Boris's announcement and he doesn't mention when students can return to university. Does anyone know when students are allowed to return?

[quote mumsneedwine]@changi my eldest DD says about 80% of people go to every lecture normally and most days they started at 9am. They are medical students so no idea if that makes a difference. Her law friend says similar amount. All lectures were always recorded to watch back even when live. And they'd chat over a coffee after the lecture not during it 😊.
It's about social contact now. These young people need it so so much. [/quote]

Yes absolutely. It's about the discussion, sharing and challenging of ideas which takes place afterwards over a coffee/lunch with people you feel comfortable with because you see them regularly. Not someone behind a screen with their camera turned off who you've never met!
These are life skills necessary for many careers which this cohort are not experiencing.

A friend works for one of the big American tech companies.
Despite the fact most of the work has been carried out from home for last year they are very keen to get the UK end back into the office environment when allowed (USA end already back) as what they are missing is the creativity, sharing and bouncing off ideas, exploring new concepts together. They find this works much better in an environment created for this, not by everyone working remotely.

Totally agree on both point JellyBabiesSaveLives

My son has only had 3 tutorials this academic year - that's it, and they weren't even attended by lecturers, they were held by PHD students

It is quite normal for PhDs to conduct tutorials in some cases. That isn't anything to do with COVID.

I'd also be interested to know how many students tell their parents they've only had a couple of tutorials, when they mean they've only attended a couple of tutorials. My lecturer friend was telling me last week, out of 28 that were supposed to be at a tutorial, only 7 turned up and only 3 of those would turn their cameras on. Then another one in the same day (I might be mixing up seminar and tutorial here) where it was for a group of 13, and only 6 bothered to come. That one, at least the 6 that came turned their cameras on and had a really good session. The same friend told me similar figures for a tutorial before the first year's first exams in January, when they were giving advice and support on how to tackle them which you'd have thought every first year would benefit from, but I think it was 4 that turned up out of the 20 or so in the Group. This is on a rigorous course at a highly rated University, where you'd think the keener students might be.

Like others, my dd prefers the Lectures to be on line, but is obviously keen to get into the lab and also for sports teams to start to meet. Most of her lecturers have breakout rooms and activities and opportunities for the students to discuss things and work collaboratively on various tasks.

Even the Daily Fail is on the case now....

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9443265/amp/Students-allowed-return-campus-university-chiefs-tell-Boris.html

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/apr/07/english-university-asks-students-to-lobby-mps-over-lockdown-easing

Anyone with DC at Pompey?

@changi

Weird if it's students on courses with a high studio / lab content who are voting for 'contactless' teaching, though.

I doubt they are voting for totally contactless. Based on my experience, the students that know what 'normal' is are saying that they prefer having the lectures online.

The bit upthread about lectures being a place to chat to people on the course is perhaps misleading. I suspect it might be an idealised presumption of what happens at lectures made by a first year student who hasn't actually attended any face to face lectures yet. The reality is that after the first couple of lectures, only about 25% will actually turn up. Fewer if the lecture is at 9 am or 6pm. Fewer still if it is 9am on a Thursday morning. In the past, those that didn't attend relied on lecture recordings of variable clarity. Now they have lectures tailored specifically for online viewing. For the majority, it is better for them and they want to stick with it.

Actually with my course - there's no real distinction between lectures and seminars in a lot of cases - we stop for discussion and clarification throughout both as it's a very small cohort so the teaching style mirrors that. There's been no opportunity for that with recorded lectures - and in a fair few cases we've not had the chance for guest lecturers to come in and do their specialist areas that other years would have had - and have had to make do with previous year recordings.

As for the attendance point (and I'm saying this as someone who's easily saved thousands in not having train fares and parking at the station so should fall into the pro-online camp) - generally we only have about 3-4 people missing from a typical session (out of a cohort of 35)... at one point one of the staff (granted a very unpopular staff member whose teaching style is not much cop to the point we've basically taught ourselves the module) said she'd looked at her engagement stats for watching recorded sessions and 20% had listened to the most recent session.

I bloody hate it - I hate speaking on mic, I hate the loss of spontaneous discussion, I hate hate hate hate hate randomly allocated breakout rooms, I loathe beyond the depths of loathing our uni online learning platform that never fucking works and I am sick of paying £9k a year to spend 15 minutes watching a staff member try to work out why the software isn't working that morning (spoiler: cos it's shite) and seeing our lecturing staff reduced to absolute frazzles fighting with the changed workload, shit technology, and generally everything being about a thousand times harder than it would have been on campus. We've seen very loved members of staff absolutely worn down by this shit - and they're missing US as well - to the point where one of our lovely lovely lovely loveliest lecturers has resorted to sticking us in breakout groups so she can jump in and see our faces for a chat (the software won't let us have cameras on in a main room - it keels over and needs resuscitation).

We've having to do assignments without access to diagnostic assessments as we have no access to the departmental resource library, we've had NO chance to have practical training in some of the key clinical skills - and we've been trying to do phonetics all year, with real precision needed to know where every bit of your mouth is going, and needing feedback that we're making the sounds correctly so we can transcribe them correctly... via online, with a shitty connection on the days the uni software decides to be really crap - and no chance for us to practice making them and getting feedback in real time. We have all struggled massively this year compared to last year - and the isolation of being stuck at home alone has NOT helped either - our cohort's mark averages are down on the expected apparently, and my own marks have slid in a few subjects - and I'm about as motivated as they come (I want that bloody first).

I've found this year utterly grim and relentless - I'd take having to get the 6pm rammed and shitty commuter train home any day - to the point I'm seriously considering jacking it in if it's going to be the same for another year. I've also made sure I've got onto every survey or focus group going to make sure that the voice of the mature students are heard as well (including reminding our students union of our existence). At the moment it's a massive wall of silence from the university about what's going to happen next year - and I strongly suspect that's to try to keep us all from making an informed choice about what it's going to be like and dropping out for a year.

Massive wall of silence sums it up doesn’t it. Well silence for students. We can only assume management and staff are on it as many have said they are timetabling for online again

@changi I know you think the vision of f2f lectures as an opportunity for students to share their learning is a bit ‘idealised’, but my first year DS has met NO ONE on his course. He has had no opportunity to wander from lecture to coffee shop to talk about a point raised by a lecturer. He has not come out of a seminar group and headed off to the library with a study partner to chase up a reference from the discussion. No chance for a serendipitous meeting of like minds before or after a timetabled event.

He has no idea what any of his subject cohort even look like as cameras are off in the live discussions.

In the 5 weeks of the Autumn term when he was not in isolation, he ate with his household and had evenings out seated in tables of 6 before that was shut down. A couple of weeks of distanced sport training before that was shut down.

Face to face teaching is about more than note-taking that may be as easily facilitated on a x1.5 speed recording.

@CoffeeWithCheese
Agree with everything you say. It has been incredibly difficult for some people to learn like this, I would have really struggled too.
I did a very similar course to yours (by the sound of things) and you're absolutely right there would be discussion and sharing of ideas during a lecture, techniques that students had tried but hadn't worked etc, which just couldn't happen with everyone watching remotely. It's not always about what students would prefer.

We should all be concerned about the next generation of engineers, scientists, HCPs etc not having the same skill level as those who went before.

Massive wall of silence sums it up doesn’t it. Well silence for students

It obviously varies from institution to institution and possibly department to department. We sent out a communication to all students before the end of the spring term explaining what we had planned for the next term and the next academic year. Arrangements were also discussed during the staff student liaison committee meeting week or so ago. Yes, we are planning for online again. We would be stupid not to. However, online is a contingency should face-to-face again become impossible.

We have rejigged the normal timetable so as many missed practical sessions as possible can take place in term three.

I fully agree with all the last posts. Coffeewithcheese you sound utterly despairing with it all.

@Newgirls

Massive wall of silence sums it up doesn’t it. Well silence for students. We can only assume management and staff are on it as many have said they are timetabling for online again

There's absolutely no excuse for their Plan A being online from October. Uni's need to be back to normal. I can understand them thinking about a Plan B if there are further restrictions/lockdowns etc, but that should be the contingency, not the expectation.

Students can't be expected to suffer yet another crap year when virtually everything outside Unis is back to near normal.

This year, we've had lockdowns for 4 months (Nov and Jan-Mar) so students havn't really had the grounds for complaint. But if there are no lockdowns or severe restrictions in October, I'd love to hear how the Unis can justify not being back to near normal, i.e. all lecturers/staff actually on campus, doing at least small group/socially distanced tutorials/seminar sessions, even if they're not able to do normal lecture theatres. Students won't just roll over and accept yet another year of crap Uni experience.

[quote KingscoteStaff]@changi I know you think the vision of f2f lectures as an opportunity for students to share their learning is a bit ‘idealised’, but my first year DS has met NO ONE on his course. He has had no opportunity to wander from lecture to coffee shop to talk about a point raised by a lecturer. He has not come out of a seminar group and headed off to the library with a study partner to chase up a reference from the discussion. No chance for a serendipitous meeting of like minds before or after a timetabled event.

He has no idea what any of his subject cohort even look like as cameras are off in the live discussions.

In the 5 weeks of the Autumn term when he was not in isolation, he ate with his household and had evenings out seated in tables of 6 before that was shut down. A couple of weeks of distanced sport training before that was shut down.

Face to face teaching is about more than note-taking that may be as easily facilitated on a x1.5 speed recording.[/quote]
I agree. My son hasn't met anyone on his course either. His Uni is like some kind of zombie apocalypse with just the odd sad looking student wondering around. The only people he's met are the 7 he's sharing his "flat" with, but the only communal area (the kitchen) is tiny (their "common room" is, of course, closed!) so they all stay in their rooms 24/7. It's a miserable existence. I appreciate Unis need to work within the restrictions, but some have gone way beyond that and the students are the ones suffering.

@KingscoteStaff I agree that doesn't sound good. Does your son's uni use tutorials? We ran weekly f2f tutorials in the autumn for so students got to meet each other in person and they have been happy to carry on with cameras on during online tutorials, unless they are still in bed. Admittedly tutorials do only allow them to mix with a handful of other students but it does mean they are not alone and have other students they know to chat to. Alongside lectures there is also a lot of group work where they can interact with each other. I know from dropping in to the group meetings that cameras are on during those too. Obviously, there is the odd exception.

Agree also that lectures are more than just note taking so we have timetabled drop-in sessions specific to a module so that students can ask questions directly to the lecturer after watching that week's lectures. A sort of virtual 'office hour'. Attendance is usually quite high for those and cameras are almost without exception turned off. They are not formal Q&A sessions, more of a discussion group. The weekly drop-sessions have been so successful that I will continue with them even if f2f lectures are resumed.

Like I said in my post above, there does seem to be a lot of variation in approach between institutions.

My sons have met no one on their course this year (other than their twin and their school friend who is doing the same course and lives near us). They have their last exams this week and next so will start as they ended - a bot at the end of a computer in effect. For this post grad law course that does not matter hugely as it is a professional course for lawyers but even so they have missed out on elements their sisters had - eg making friends with future lawyers on the course, chatting to lecturers you know, debates in class rooms etc.

They start their last course in September - Legal Practice Course. I hope that is face to face but we shall see. It is supposed to be fairly practical and it would be a pity if they were here all the time again (not least because I would like my house free of people at least for a bit of time even if only for 2 days a week!).

It is much worse for freshers. My sons had almost the full 3 years before covid 19 and only missed out the last term, graduation ceremonies, final parties etc. They made friends already and still have those friends.
I hope freshers this year get their 3rd term back at university fully and allowed to mix socially even if lectures are online, so they can go out and about, mix, get drunk go to parties, go to clubs after 21 June etc. and then start year 2 in September in the normal way with face to face lecturers as every old and vulnerable lecturer will have had the vaccination and most students are not a risk if they catch cv19.

Think until this stage universities in England were able to do blended learning but not fully f2f for all students all the time.

In the previous briefing then university was mentioned it said more information would be forthcoming after Easter for universities, but this time it wasn't mentioned.

DD's university has posted to say that they are still waiting for clarification.

Dd is in a course which has had a small amount of f2f, for half sized groups occasionally, mostly it online. Even her placement was virtual!

She's actually been back since January, but she's had very little f2f since September. It's not really good enough, considering how much this is costing.

Dd is in private accommodation so that side of it hasn't been affected.

It's the course side.
Very little f2f at all from the start (despite being told before she went is would be much more)
Little chance to mix with others in her course. Meeting someone and getting to know them for the first time really isn't the same done in video calls.

Dd fell lucky that she was able to bubble with a group in a flat below her (her two flatmates only arrived for about 3-4 weeks then left had haven't returned) so she's made friends and enjoyed her time socially.

But the actual course delivery hasn't been ideal when it comes to engaging with others in her course, getting to know them, working together of projects, doing placements together, etc. That side has definitely not been worth the £9k it's costing.

The only reason I know the little I do about the uni planning on distanced learning again is cos I'm a cheeky cow who asked the lecturer I know will keep us in the loop! The uni are deathly silent on the issue - just wanting us to keep paying the fees I think - same as they did this year - just promised us this blend of learning and only lectures where it's just information being given out online - and anything collaborative and interactive face to face... then held right back the timetabling and how shit it was really going to be until it was far too late for us to back out of the year of courses. I've sat in focus groups with other students and they've all felt that they were, if not completely lied to, information was intentionally delayed being released to make sure we committed to this year (the timetabling requests for next year have gone in already - I know this - so they knew well before the summer what was likely on the cards).

I have nothing but praise for the staff who've turned their teaching around for online and have done the absolute best they can - but Blackboard Collaborate can fucking burn in hell, and I'm not sure the goodwill of the students will carry on for another year if it's as crappy as this one has been. My mental health is absolutely fucked.

@Abraxan

Think until this stage universities in England were able to do blended learning but not fully f2f for all students all the time.

In the previous briefing then university was mentioned it said more information would be forthcoming after Easter for universities, but this time it wasn't mentioned.

DD's university has posted to say that they are still waiting for clarification.

Dd is in a course which has had a small amount of f2f, for half sized groups occasionally, mostly it online. Even her placement was virtual!

She's actually been back since January, but she's had very little f2f since September. It's not really good enough, considering how much this is costing.

Clarification for what? This is what drives me mad. Some unis are finding solutions, some are hiding behind gov vagueness.

Clarification for what? This is what drives me mad. Some unis are finding solutions, some are hiding behind gov vagueness.

I believe it's clarification in when full f2f can resume.
They're already doing blended learning for some courses.
Some are still full time online.

I haven't looked it up, has the government said that all courses at universities can now return full time f2f? If so, are there restrictions and what are they?

It would be good to know.

I teach all my 18 year olds F2f so why can't Unis. No logical reason why ok for me and not lecturers ??

@mumsneedwine

I teach all my 18 year olds F2f so why can't Unis. No logical reason why ok for me and not lecturers ??

Even less of any logic reason when they return in October as all "vulnerable" lecturers/staff will have been offered both jabs by then, and most, if not all, students will have also been offered both jabs. Assuming there is no hold up or reversal to Boris's relaxations plans, no reason at all why Unis shouldn't be back to normal in October. Uni's need to be planning to be back to normal - the students really won't put up with paying £15k p.a. for another year of awful online learning, especially those not doing practical/lab subjects who've had virtually no F2F teaching this year at all. If Uni's want to go down the "online" route, then they need to be fully open and honest and provide it for a much cheaper fee (on a par with other online learning businesses). They really can't expect students to pay full fees which include "the campus experience" - after all, that's how Unis have been justifying the £9k fee per year, if they're not getting it. One year, fair enough due to lockdowns, etc., but unless there are lockdowns in October onwards then all lecturers/staff need to be back on campus and doing the normal lectures etc.

I don't think it's helpful that the government seem to be conflating 'returning to university' with '100% face to face'. D1 is quite prepared to still have some things online - most of the first time was online - but is really fed up of being stuck in her bedroom at home.

First term

My impression is that Gavin and co have their heads in the sand and are simply hoping the problem goes away after May 17th. Students who have been following the rules are truly being ignored. It’s time for the universities to show a bit of backbone and welcome back students who are still stuck in their bedrooms, regardless of whether teaching is f2f or not.

Universities have to make their own risk assessments about whether to allow their students to return to university-owned accommodation based on their own considerations for the students, staff and, importantly, wider community.

Our students can all come back to halls if they want. We have offered them a rent rebate to discourage them from doing so, but if they want to, they can come.

But we are an out-of-town campus university and our first year students are notorious for never leaving the campus even in normal times. Consequently, the risk of them sparking a third wave of infection, and particularly infection with new variants, in the local population is relatively small.

A university that is much more integrated into a city, where the students mix significantly with the local resident population could not afford to be so free with allowing students to return. They have a responsibility to the community that they are part of, not just to their own students.