Maths (St Andrews), benefits of English langauge as fourth a-level?

[houseplantassassin]

Hello, I'm hoping there will be someone more knowledgeable than me to offer advice for my dd.

Dd is currently in year 12 and studying Maths, Further Maths, Psychology and English Language a-levels. She opted for four to keep her options open in case she didn't love Maths as much as anticipated. Well, she does love Maths and wants to study it at University (possibly as a joint honours with psychology but she's just focussing on the Maths for now!), her absolute first choice is St Andrews.

English is her least favourite subject and also the one that requires the most effort. Personally, I found it very interesting listening to her classes during lockdown and dd does find the content interesting, it's just essay writing she doesn't love and has to work hard at to get good grades. She is considering dropping English Language but we don't know if it's a good decision. Guidance from school has been limited and I'm a bit clueless (I went to university but didn't do a-levels and my degree was vocational so none of my experience is relevant here).

Entry requirements for Maths at St Andrew's are A+ A+ A (including A+ in Maths) as standard. Dd will be eligible for a contextual offer according to their website which means any offer would likely be A+, A, B (A+ in Maths) as I understand it.

Currently, she looks on track for achieving the standard grade requirements in Maths, Further Maths and Psychology, although teachers are being a little bit non-committal, understandably in current times. She also knows that a strong personal statement is really important and that it's a competitive course/university to secure an offer for so we are just wanting to make the right decision to maximise her chances.

Pros dropping English
-More times to focus on achieving the highest grades in Maths, Further Maths and Psychology (5 hours a week less teaching plus the time she spends on English outside of school)
-More time to focus on Maths outside of a-level to improve her application
-Less pressure

Cons dropping English
-Developing essay writing skills is something that I'm sure is very useful
-Less impressive application? But obviously would only be impressive if she achieved a good grade in English. Is English as fourth a-level even desirable in someone applying for a Maths degree?
-Work so far has no reward. There doesn't seem to be an option to do an AS level which would possibly have been a good compromise. None of the staff she's spoken to have been able to give a definitive answer about whether the school even offers this in standard times nevermind how it would work during covid. I've encouraged her to email the head of sixth form.
-Would she need to do an EPQ or something instead to improve her application?

Sorry it's so long! Any sharing of knowledge/advice would be very much appreciated.

I would drop the English Language. Don't think having it will enhance her application to Uni. To be honest a lot of schools only offer English Literature as English Language may not be seen as a facilitating subject although RG Unis are trying to move away from this

Agree with pp. no benefit for her at all she should drop it.

Would she still be ok with her 3 A levels being Maths, further maths and psychology though if she does have a change of heart about which degree to do?

I’m pretty sure that for some courses they won’t consider maths and further maths separately (but could be wrong!)

Have you asked StA admissions? DD was in a similar situation two years ago but for a different subject (economics). She emailed StA but didn't get a clear answer. School said to keep the 4th subject (which was AH English) to make her application competitive (chance of an offer from St A was about 11% for her subject for Scottish Students). They rejected her in late March but she has found AH English useful for essay writing at her current uni. It might be worth asking on the StA current student thread as there is a mum to a Scottish student who currently studies maths. She might have some tips. If I remember correctly her DC got a personal tour of the department (they must have been keen to have her).

Have you discussed this with the school's UCAS advisor?

@ClerkMaxwell think that may be my dd?? She decided on 2nd year entry as very clear only interested in studying maths. She does not regret that decision. However if OP your dd wants to keep her options open that is very easy to do at Scottish unis if she opts for 1st year maths entry. Personally I would not apply for joint honours as then 2 different schools have to assess the application, it also waters down the personal statement somewhat. Your dd would be able to choose psychology as a module and then when it comes to honours she can choose joint honours then. There is no rush. St A do place a lot of importance on the PS dd was told by the tutor she spoke with it is graded out of 100.
Precovid we managed to do a post application talk and tour and my dd was lucky enough to be given time with a tutor from the department. She is really enjoying her studies despite all the restrictions.
As an aside her AHs were Maths, Mechanics of mathematics and Physics.

Thank you for your replies, so no-one really thinks English Language is of massive benefit it seems.

@ClerkMaxwellClerkMaxwell
she has found AH English useful for essay writing at her current uni

I can see this being the case, I mentioned it to dd and she said she is good at writing (not untrue, but she's good at creative writing) she just can't think of much to say about English Language . I have suggested she email admissions, I will reassure her this is definitely a thing people do as she looked unsure. How do you find out the chance of getting an offer for a specific subject at a specific uni? I've tried searching for this info online but can't find it.

@LaLaFlottes
This was part of the reason behind choosing 4 originally. She's pretty fixed on the Maths now though, and realistically I'm not sure how much English Language would expand her options for degree choice unless she wanted to study English, which I don't think is going to happen given the above response.

@chopc she did try and have a discussion with the careers advisor (would assume this person is the same as a UCAS advisor) recently but it didn't sound particularly useful, she directed her to some standard websites and said they'd be doing some work with the year 12s next term.

@Alittlewornout I'm glad to hear your daughter is enjoying it so far, even in the current climate. How is she finding the jump from AHs to degree level Maths?
Yes, we've read PS is very important with St A's and I agree with you that applying for one subject makes it easier to write a good one. Part of the appeal of a Scottish University for dd is definitely the option of studying modules from other subjects though. We really feel like she would be well suited to St A's overall, everything we've read and seen just seems to be right for her. I hope next year brings some normality for you dd and she gets to enjoy all St A's has to offer.

It's a very busy time of year but worthwhile contacting admissions or the Head of Department at St. Andrews.

I did Maths at St Andrews, I loved it so much.
It was 10 years ago that I applied but at the time, there was a massive focus on the applicants being ‘well rounded individuals’. I remember on my application talking about reading around the subject and other interests rather than just focusing on results. I had some friends that also applied and were unsuccessful - we were no different academically, it was the outside interests that made a difference I think.
So the English might be a positive in that it shows there is a lot more to your DD than just being a strong mathematician.

Best of luck with the application, I hope it all goes well.

Hi @houseplantassassin, as my dd did direct entry to 2nd year there was a jump! However she had been forewarned that she would find that first term tough as she was playing catch up a bit. She also had to learn exactly what tutors were looking for. At times she was a rabbit in the headlights. However it all clicked and she ended up with an excellent set of results for her first terms exams. She is finding this semester less daunting and is much more confident in her abilities.
My DS did a maths module in 1st year and found the level fine. He is a history student but had completed AH maths.
As others have said ST A and other unis do not want a list of maths achievements, they want super curriculars that show engagement with the subject.
It does not need to be some expensive course etc, reading something, listening to a pod cast or attending a free lecture at another uni. Then being able to explain how this increased your understanding or promted you to further reading, investigation etc.
Dd had a lot of extra curriculars too as she danced quite seiously 8 to 10 hours a week and various senior school roles. The teacher reference covered those elements so she used the PS purely for the mathematics.
Both my DC are thriving there both academically and socially despite the challenges.
Feel free to PM me if I can be of help, what I don't know I will ask my experts and get back to you.

DD took maths, history & English language at A level. She's now studying PPE at Oxford. It actually matches very well with psychology. DD found the technical part of the syllabus as dull as dish water, but that was only around 20% of the whole thing and later modules were far more interesting. She found that modules on language development, gender differences, analysis of speeches and the course work elements were interesting as she had a lot of freedom to take the subject in which ever direction she wanted.

DD had offers from Oxford, Durham, Warwick and York, so they didn't seem to see it as a problem. Another one of her friends received an offer from St A for maths with maths, FM and business studies. Most universities understand that they can look beyond the narrow range of subjects offered by smaller 6th forms and indies these days, hence why the RG group scrapped facilitating subjects a few years ago.

Could your DD convert it towards a related EPQ if she decided to drop it. It seems a shame to waste her hard work.

The reality is that most unis would still prefer to have 3 A levels at a higher grade than 4 A levels if it means that by studying the 4th it may drag her grades down at all.

Thank you so much for all of your replies.

Dd emailed Maths admissions at St A, the reply advised she should continue the extra a-level! I'm so glad she did as she was definitely preparing to drop it. They said that applications are ranked on grades in the first instance and as they are very over-subscribed an offer can end up well above the advertised entry requirements.

I think she was a little bit disappointed but St A is what she really wants, so she accepts she's just going to have to work really hard. I hope it pays off in the end.

We've just made a timetable for work this week, its fairly full but definitely achievable, and next week should be a bit more relaxed. She spent yesterday evening looking at super curricular Maths stuff and has signed up for a problem-solving course.

@Pipperleen thank you, it's good to hear you loved your time at St A, it really does seem like a great place. Where did your Maths degree lead you? Dd hasn't got much of an idea career-wise, she just knows she loves Maths.

@Alittlewornout it sounds like your dd is doing great! With two children there your family will definitely be experts on all things St A, I might take you up on that offer to PM in the future, thank you very much. It sounds like first-year entry would definitely be the way to go for dd, easier transition, and the chance to study some other subjects.

@Hoghgyni @SeasonFinale we were definitely heading towards dd dropping English and your replies are really encouraging, especially that your dd and her friends got such great offers with 3 a-levels Hoghgyni. I think we'd be unwise not to follow the advice she's been given directly from the horse's mouth though. I suppose at least if the 4 do turn out to be too much workload wise then at least we would know all is not lost and it wouldn't completely destroy her chances of an offer.

It's a bit stressful all of this isn't it.

Was their reasoning that they only treat FM as a 4th A level and won't accept it as one of only 3 A levels? It goes very much against advice given (even by Oxbridge)? That is the only thing I can think of.

I suspect it's the fact that in Scotland kids generally do 4 or 5 highers/advanced highers. They're more used to seeing that, and not really taking into account he fact that Scottish kids only study up to around AS level standard before uni.

@SeasonFinale

Was their reasoning that they only treat FM as a 4th A level and won't accept it as one of only 3 A levels? It goes very much against advice given (even by Oxbridge)? That is the only thing I can think of.

It was quite a short email so beyond what I said above it was just pleasantries. There was certainly no mention or implication that Further Maths is only treated as a 4th A level, just that they're over-subscribed and offers may be higher than the advertised entry requirements. There's not even reference to a fourth A level on their entry requirement page, compared to e.g. Warwick, so the implication that an offer may include one does seem strange. But the guy is a Maths lecturer there and answering admission enquiries, so he must know what he's talking about!

I wish there was more transparency in the whole process.

@titchy Oh maybe, they definitely both referred to A levels in the email though

Glad your dd got a response and at least knows what she is aiming for.
Yes Scottish students applying to uni generally study a minimum of 4 highers but most applying to unis like St Andrews will have 5 ( most likely 4As minimum unless contextual). S6 is different and often dependent upon individual schools and their capacity to offer advanced highers in various subjects. Most pupils aiming for uni will do a mix of highers and advanced highers in 6th year depending on how 5th year results go. 5th year in my opinion is the toughest for Scottish kids, the amount of work required is huge, I remember my 5th year only too well and that wasnt yesterday!! Interestingly, when ds applied to uni he recieved an unconditional offer from Exeter based on his higher grades. We were surprised by that at the time as thought they would want advanced highers.

DDs school provided admission statistics. Here's the ones she got but there should be some more up to date ones somewhere: www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/updated_admission_statistics

School was good in that they pointed out that all non-contextual applicants would meet/exceed the standard entrance requirements and to think how many people were better than them in their school and multiply that up over all schools in Scotland. It meant that she was realistic about her chances of an offer and wasn't over invested in StA. It helped as well that her school isn't very successful with StA (they got one offer in the entire year over all subjects). I

@ClerkMaxwell sound advice re not being overly invested. Dd was, and having big bro there would have made a rejection really hard. Appreciate she was really lucky to get an offer and it is definitely the right place for her. However I am equally certain she would have loved any of the other options she had and thrived. We tried to draw up a positives list for all the choices ( we thought we would leave the cons until all offers were in!), we advised at the beginning to make sure she would go to any of the unis. Dont put a choice down if you have absolutely no intention of going there.

@Alittlewornout

Glad your dd got a response and at least knows what she is aiming for. Yes Scottish students applying to uni generally study a minimum of 4 highers but most applying to unis like St Andrews will have 5 ( most likely 4As minimum unless contextual). S6 is different and often dependent upon individual schools and their capacity to offer advanced highers in various subjects. Most pupils aiming for uni will do a mix of highers and advanced highers in 6th year depending on how 5th year results go. 5th year in my opinion is the toughest for Scottish kids, the amount of work required is huge, I remember my 5th year only too well and that wasnt yesterday!! Interestingly, when ds applied to uni he recieved an unconditional offer from Exeter based on his higher grades. We were surprised by that at the time as thought they would want advanced highers.

Interesting (and a bit confusing) the difference between the systems. So Scottish students would receive an unconditional offer based on the Highers they've done in S5? So then is anything they do in S6 purely for ongoing educational benefit, to increase their knowledge etc? Oh and to allow them to enter a Scottish university in the second year I suppose. I can see why S5 would be the harder year, which seems to be the opposite to A levels where the second year is when all of the exams happen. With the added stress of applications, waiting for offers, and then not knowing if you're going to meet your offer conditions.

Thanks for the admission stats @ClerkMaxwell, application numbers have increased quite a bit over that time period haven't they. And RUK students are more likely to be made an offer than Scottish students, and international students even more likely. All about the money eh, must be frustrating for Scottish students though. Although I suppose they are more likely to take up the offer, because it's more likely to be unconditional I assume.

It is good advice to not be overly invested but I think we might already be there tbh (me as much her, but I'm trying to keep it to myself!). We are researching other universities and I'm hoping in May half term we can have a couple of visits. I'm trying to encourage the approach of - work as hard as you can because if you're supposed to go there that is what it will take, but also there might be something else that is meant for you, and if you've done everything you can and don't end up at St A that is why. She's pretty resilient, emotional so there'd undoubtedly be tears if she doesn't get an offer/meet the offer conditions for St A but she'd fairly quickly get past it and see the positives I think.

@houseplantassassin, yes you are right a lot of Scottish students will receive unconditional offers based on 5th year results. If you look at grade requirements for Scottish unis they will advise on what are standard grades expected for Highers taken in 1 examination diet or over 2. In effect 6th year allows students to add to their higher portfolio if 5th year grades weren't quite there. Therefore some Scottish students will also receive conditional offers.
AH allows increased depth of study and for limited courses and unis (primarily maths and some sciences) direct entry into 2nd year. AH open up the opportunity to apply to English unis.
I know what you mean about already being invested, I was secretly too! Being positive about the other unis did help and we were lucky, pre covid dd was able to attend open days and did a course at one.
I really wish your dd well in her application. Its an exciting time in their lives.

There is a move however to increase the number of places available to Scottish students and reduce to RUK as they wish to reduce the brain drain effect whereby Scottish students go to study in England and don't return whereas the English students who study in Scotland do tend to go back to England after. But I suspect the knock on effect of this proposed policy may take a couple of years to fully bed in.

dd ( Scottish student) had a mix of conditional and unconditional offers when she applied in S6 - her first choice was Glasgow and it was conditional on BB at AH - she asked if AC would be acceptable and was told a very firm NO.