Goldman Sachs first year analyst survey - should I discourage my son from applying?

[kittybritain]

DS is in top uni doing economics and is applying for graduate schemes at investment banks.
I read the GS first year analyst survey and worry his mental health might suffer if he joins the firm, or any other investment bank.

assets.bwbx.io/documents/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/rim9z3X.NpYk/v0?fbclid=IwAR0ODL_MKntKLsziT2uEzhkC0pW6GuIUG_C-0PPz3pnA7iIqTPaMn0l8fnE

Does anyone have DC at these firms and can advise on working conditions?
Thanks

1. These schemes are enormously competitive so he may well not get a place
2. If he goes in with his eyes wide open, if he does not like it he can leave.

I suspect that it would be like any other high achieving competitive environment. He has probably seen it at his University. Some people are so determined to succeed that they pile pressure on themselves. Others barely notice, maintain a good range of outside interests and thrive.

A friend of DS' had a sought-after Easter internship at GS. She was then offered an even more sought after summer internship - effectively a well paid summer long job interview. She turned it down. The Easter experience enabled her to realise that investment banking was not for her, and she seems headed for academia instead.

I would not discourage him from trying, not least because graduate jobs are in short supply. Instead I would talk to him about the need to stay anchored, and about the pressures he might face. Most won't stay for long anyway, as it tends to be up or out. However two years at GS is not a bad thing to have on your CV.

Depends what he wants.
Some are prepared to give their all for the potential end rewards.

I wouldn't discourage but it's certainly worth having a talk about the hours/ pressure/ Masters of the Universe thing. But unless your DS has pre-existing health issues my view would be do this stuff while you're young and have energy and if you don't like the pace then leave, like so many do.

As an ex City person I found this fascinating abd quite uplifting in a way. I admire the young employees for saying thus is not a good way to work. However, the things they mention could have been said by me and my cohort in the early 90’s. Nothing has changed mostly because there is a prevailing attitude of “it didn’t do me any harm” and that the big rewards require the proverbial pound of flesh. Wholesale cultural change will take years. So you are sensible to worry about your DC entering this profession (the same probably stands for the big accountants and law firms too) but thinking of coping strategies beforehand will help

I did an internship with Goldman Sachs when I was at Uni. I had the absolute time of my life and would do it again like a shot. Not only were we taken to some amazing restaurants and social experiences, we also had lunches and breakfast meetings with women’s networks etc, who were very honest about the reality of life in the City. We also all worked incredibly hard but we were young and full of energy.

I worked in fixed income, currencies and commodities which is generally “easier” than investment banking arms, FWIW.

This looks like a pretty honest and accurate survey.

My DH is an (M&A) investment banker. His early years were gruelling but then moved over to a boutique firm which are seen to be much better for work/life balance.

My DP worked for GS for 10 year, Not as a grad but starting as a middle manager, moving to VP and left on the MD track. It was the hardest most challenging role he ever did but it was an incredible learning curve and it opened a million doors for him as well as paying him an incredibly good salary.

Personally if your son is interested and understands what he’s getting into i would encourage him to apply and then to ride it out for 2-3 years. It can only stand him in good stead

You have to be strong. Same in some city law firms - can you work all night , have no sleep and carry on. Can you work without over time and work every single weekend for 3 months? If not choose an easier job which will probably be on lower pay.

Not that I support very long hours. I always scheduled meeting for 9am not 5pm and usually now can just tell a client I don't work well in the evenings but will do the thing first thing the next day (where that is feasible).

I think things got worse from the 90s as pay got higher and higher - I think it was better in the 80s when law firm partners with whom I worked in partnerships which then by law could only be up to 20 people no more had to commute in from Kent etc because they could not afford London house prices. Hours got worse and worse. if they get better now even if pay halves that is probably a good thing as it means you can keep going. I am as happy nearly 40 years into my legal career as in 1983 because I have paced myself.

I worked in investment banking as an assistant at GS. I saw interns and first year analysts collapse from exhaustion due to the amount they worked. 3 years ago they were banned from working after 9pm on a Friday and on Saturdays so this article is nothing new. I would often come in at 730am and see analysts still there from the night before. Yeh it’s fine when you go up the ranks but it’s a tough way of life

I’ve spent my career in the City, and while I haven’t worked at GS, I’m now at a firm founded by a group of ex-GS lifers so have heard a lot about the culture and it isn’t radically different from anywhere else.

Either City life appeals or it doesn’t, so if he has his heart set on it as a career, a bit of discouragement from you probably won’t change it.

At least with GS, they are brutal about getting rid of low performers, so if you’re not going to make it, you’ll find out pretty quickly, and can move onto another career

I was an intern and then Analyst at GS for 3 years. I absolutely enjoyed my time there, and it opened so many doors for me (it still does). Out of a batch of 20 analysts who joined across IB, Equities, Fixed Income etc, only 5 (including me) left in those 3 years. It couldn't have been that bad then eh.

I survived on adrenaline and little sleep, but it's a different world and in your 20s you really don't sleep eight hours. I left to find more work-life balance, but it's a choice I made after having been through this - why would you deny your DS the chance?

Let him read the survey and make his own mind up. It’s a great foot in the door to see how city life suits. Interns at my firm have a great time, without the gruelling GS hours. These internships only take in the cream of the crop applicants so it’s tough to get in to in the first place.

It's pretty accurate. I used to live with someone who worked at GS. She didn't sleep there very often but I only had to see her come home at midnight as white as a sheet a few times before I wouldn't have worked there for any money.

That's IBanking for you though and some people can hack it or even thrive on it. Many do it for a time and then use the experience to get into a role just as obscenely well paid but with more livable hours. It's up to your DC. I'd just stay out of the decision.

If you have concerns about his mental health in such a job, you need to have an honest conversation with your DS. He might be surrounded by friends who are spurring each other on to try for this type of job. If it’s really what he wants and he thinks he’s robust, then have a go. If he’s got any MH concerns, I wouldn’t say this is a suitable course of action. Is it solely your worry about MH and is it justified? Do you have a reason to think he wouldn’t cope?

Good points above. It can be a good start to a career. I suspect I did pretty well in my own law firm (from home since 1994) because of that very good start.

The important thing is that people know before they take these jobs. My son is applying for law jobs. He knows what it can be like in some firms (not least because he has a sibling in one who at times has had very long hours) so he is making informed choices.

I also think people who work over others in these big firms need to consider the impact on health (as many of them do) of hours which are too relentless.

Has anyone seen "Industry"? People tell me it gives a fairly accurate view of life in a grad scheme

The group in the Goldman Sachs “survey” work in the USA and were self selecting. I would imagine long hours are the norm here too but may not be quite the same as in the USA? Whatever the case, hours worked should be looked at by these firms. I guess the EU working hours directive doesn’t apply now?

It really puzzles me how much longer hours need to be worked these days to achieve what was achieved when I was in the City (mid eighties/ 9.30 to 6), never mind when my father worked there (fifties to nineties/ 10am to 4pm with very long lunches to break up the day). My father was very, very strongly opposed to the notion of face time.

I certainly worried about my eldest DD when she was working crazy hours at a Magic Circle firm. One of her brothers is at a different Magic Circle firm and works significantly less crazy hours, but that's possibly to do with lockdown - not sure.

Let him read the report and make his own decision. You might think you know him as well as he does himself, but he will have grown up a lot over the last three years and I am sure will have a much better idea of what he can handle than you, now. It's time to let go!

@presentingpercy
Even when In the EU it was standard practice in Banking to sign paperwork to opt out of the working time directive when signing your employment contract. I actually thought most companies did this.

My daughters partner is in this role. A different company but equally prestigious and the hours are like this. Working till 2am is the norm and the pressure is huge. So are the financial rewards to be fair. Weekends are sacrosanct though.

I don’t think it’s your place to discourage him. I do think though he has to go into it with his eyes wide open and know what hes letting himself in for.

I do think though, if DS has exhibited stress under pressure at university, then this career isn’t the way to go. Parents do usually pick up on this. So if this is the case, talking openly about his career choices would be sensible. If he’s totally robust and deals well with pressure, then it’s not really something a parent can intervene in. The survey was 13 employees.

I didn’t know waivers were signed re working hours.

Goodness that sounds bloody awful...High number of employees reporting being abused!

You have to ask yourself what is fundamentally wrong with the set up that only functions if you work 100+ hours a week... Yep - you’re always just slaving to line someone else’s pockets.

I wouldn’t want to do this job either OP. An amazing salary isn’t worth working 108 hours a week, but neither would I dissuade my child either... honest conversation time. Has to be their choice. The opportunities could be immense and if you’re in your 20s then yes you could do it for a while.

Having said all that golden handcuffs are a real issue as you get older... Once you have mortgaged yourself to the hilt, and have other financial commitments or children then taking a big pay drop can be a big knock to the self esteem, lifestyle etc etc

Fuck me, that's horrific. And I say that as an ex-City person.

I did 5 years in the City (not at an investment bank) and my average week was probably 60 hours, bad weeks 80-100 hours (probably about once a month) and good weeks about 50 hours - never less (until I resigned!). I found it completely manageable but not at all enjoyable, especially as the circle of friends I moved to London with all had much more sociable hours.

But, starting at a top firm in the City opened doors for me and continues to do so. I would support my own DC going to the City, but make sure I found ways to help them - keeping the lines of communication open, and helping them realise that money isn't everything.

I left the City when I felt me attitude turning - I started to become rude and aggressive, and when I snapped at someone I knew it was 100% time for me to leave. I'm glad I had the realisation that it was changing me, and I think that's what you need to watch for in your DC.