A level Choices for DC who is unsure between Engineering or Economics at Uni

[Iamsodone]

Dear all,
Could I please seek A level choice advice for a DC who isn't too sure of what uni course to pursue later on between sciences or Economics ?
DC is put off by Economics A level (edexcel) as it is an essay-based subject.
So preliminary choices are physics/maths/chemistry and one MFL (has to start with 4)
However, we have been told that not choosing Economics may play against us if finally applying for Economics at uni, as it is available at our sixth form.
Our plan (if not taking A level economics) was to go for Economics EPQ and clubs/project to demonstrate interest should the uni Economics' path was ultimately chosen rather than take now half-heartedly a A level in case ...

I think the question applies to other subjects ie not choosing a certain A level but ultimately wanting to do it at Uni, in our case the trade off is with a so-called facilitating subject.

thanks !

Hi everyone,

thank you so much for such valuable advice ! we are not familiar with the systems and courses here in the UK so you are all amazingly super helpful. the main problem is not have decision or visibility for uni that would allow to work A level subjects backwards

I have just ordered economics EDEXCEL revision books so DC can actually look at the real thing

Further maths : yes it is an option, but not one that DC wishes to consider, though we will have to insist he reconsiders after reading you all. DC doing additional maths at GCSE level- not the same at all of course !

A level versus Degree: Degree is more number based than A level, plus A level not hugely necessary to be able to study at degree level (outside of convincing the uni of interest).

@Needmoresleepthe MFL 4th subject is not a huge amount of work as DC is already bilingual in a language that has same roots. needs to start with 4 anyway

@cinammonbuns did your DD do additional maths as A level as well ? can't decide what type of economics degrees :(

@Silkies DC will have maths A level and physics, the toss is between chemistry and economics (no biology)

@Sam1470 yes, if engineering would be general or mechanical I think, though DC has suddenly developed an interest in chemistry !!!

@CrystalE
thank you for the link that's my understanding too, until you get the maths kicking in you don't really tackle the core of the subject.

DC aiming for 8/9 grades in those GCSEs

thank you !

Could I please seek A level choice advice for a DC who isn't too sure of what uni course to pursue later on between sciences or Economics? ... However, we have been told that not choosing Economics may play against us if finally applying for Economics at uni, as it is available at our sixth form.
Ideally, DC should try to decide on a career and work backwards from there (career V needs degree W; degree W needs A Levels X,Y&Z). If DC can't pinpoint the degree in this way then they should pick A Levels that (a) that they enjoy (b) they are good at and (c) the school teaches well.

I shouldn't get too hung up on the Economics. DC can always say that they had a 'Damacsene moment' in Y12 (and give detail of what aroused their 'passion'. urgh. hate that phrase) and are a latecomer to the idea of an Economics degree - the Admissions people aren't mindreaders and won't know otherwise! Not everybody knows at age 16 what they want to do in life.

oops X-post about working backwards. A mix of slow typing and an interruption!

thank you @senua ! think we have to go with a) b) c) as no clear career/project/vocation at this point !
surely if DC finally decides to go with E it will be easier to demonstrate the interest.

I will get some materials though in the meantime

@cinammonbuns she did it in year 12 and dropped it in y13. She did very well in the maths portion of the admission test so that seemed enough to convince the university she could do economics.

If he wants to study economics at a high ranked university and to specialise in the more mathematical elements of economics, he should take Further Maths A Level if it is available to him.

There are two reasons for this. Firstly, not taking FM when it is available will not help him in the application process. At the university where I work, the offer rates for economics for people who are doing FM are consistently around 20% higher than for those who are not, and that includes people who could not take FM because it was not offered in their school. In practice, this means that people who are studying FM A Level are slightly more likely to be accepted than rejected. People who are not studying FM A Level are significantly more likely to be rejected than accepted.

Secondly, if he is accepted, he will find the more mathematical courses much harder if he does not have the preparation of FM behind him. In the worse case scenario, he could be prevented from taking the more mathematical options as he will be considered unlikely to succeed, meaning he is forced to take more essay-based options that he does not like (and may also not do very well at).

Additionally, if he does not like maths enough to even consider taking FM at A Level, a very mathematical economics degree is unlikely to be the right option for him.

The issue around Economics A Level really highlights the same problem. He is not at all interested in writing essays, so that rules out the historical, philosophical, social and political aspects of economics. He is not interested enough in mathematical economics to do all the maths he can. He is not interested enough in economics as a subject generally to do all the economics he can. So why does he want to study economics for a degree?

@cinammonbuns that's great to read !

@Phphion thanks so much for sharing such tangible and detailed information
I think we need to get to the bottom of DC's interest in economics.

The issue with (English) essays/writing is DC perceives them as time consuming (as reviewed and edited over and over again) with a relatively uncertain outcome (compared to science work at that level). so there is a bit of a frustration there. but predicted 8 at I GCSE.

Writing related to Economics is very likely to appeal more than English lit though.

thanks so much all

@Phphion

Have you seen a difference in offers of a place outcome depending on the exam boards of the applicant ?

Just to add: FM is highly desirable for any MEng degree. Chemistry is required for Chemical Engineering. Physics for Mechanical and Civils etc. So look at the details of engineering courses to see what he would prefer. Universities such as Sheffield and Bristol are worth looking at for info. If DC started on a BEng, you can normally trade up. Look at info at the professional Institutions as well.

Statistics is used in engineering. Used for analysis of data. Engineering is also about understanding design principles and I think showing an interest in mechanics, structures etc gives an indication as to whether a DC is interested in this career. You can easily get a job in finance/accountancy after an Engineering degree. Lots of general engineering grads do this. Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol and Durham grads I know have all done this.

@Iamsodone As far as I am aware, we do not track that data or pay any attention to it. Presumably we could monitor it if we wanted to, but I don't think it has ever struck anyone as being something that is worthwhile doing and sharing.

Data is everywhere so statistics are useful for a whole range of subjects across sciences and socialsciences, indeed DD was surprised at how much statistics there were in first year medicine.

I did caveat with a 'put simply' as mathematical economics courses include an avalanche of statistics and more, in a scramble to understand economic variables. (No mechanics as far as I am aware!) Some people like this, others don't.

Maths A level has both stats and mechanics but FM has more.

AFAIK, Oxford does not offer straight economics at UG level, only in combination (PPE or E&M). Requirements for these courses are likely to be different, possibly more humanities oriented. Cambridge, LSE, UCL and Warwick are the ones who really like FM. It might be worth reading individual University websites. Which in turn may help A level subject choice.

@RedGoldAndGreene did you have further maths at A level ?

Most of our engineers tend to have Maths, FM, Physics and Chemistry (or occasionally D&T if they are really interested in that side of things).

Most of our economists tend to have Maths, (FM), Economics and History/Politics or a science.

If he is likely to apply to Cambridge for engineering they would tend to expect FM if the school offers it. However they say "A Level Further Mathematics is very strongly encouraged. If unavailable or you’ve recognised its desirability too late, we’d advise you to do as much additional pure maths and mechanics as possible, eg by studying advanced material or Further Mathematics AS Level."

He should definitely do maths. But it does seem very very odd not to do economics if it is offered so that he can find out what it is about.

I can't really get my head round avoiding a subject at A Level whilst potentially wanting to do it as a degree!

I did what I enjoyed- and I didn't enjoy essay subjects either. Also my memory is poor so I really would have struggled with eg history or English.

So I did subjects that I liked and you could work it out-

Maths
Further maths
Physics
Chemistry

This was years ago but from the thread it looks like maths and FM are still different- I preferred FM by miles.

And ironically-

'Maths people who do economics at university do tend to earn well if they go into financial services after.'

I'm in financial services and I think I earn quite well!!

Get him to have a look at actuarial science and MORSE (at Warwick, Southampton and possibly a couple of other universities.)

I know a lot of actuaries.

Great pay
The ones I know really enjoy their jobs
If you have good communication skills the sky is the limit
They all seem really nice as well

If he loves Excel and is great at maths and isn't scared of responsibility it's a good option

Considering there is a lot of engineering concerned with the environment, Chemistry isn’t always the best shout. Geography can be a good choice and DT. FM is rarely required for BEng buf is useful for MEng. However, as I said, moving up to MEng is possible whilst at university so FM isn’t vital and won’t rule DC out of some pretty good universities.

Cambridge is general engineering. Lots of first class universities don’t offer that. The vast majority of undergrads apply for an engineering discipline (except on MN). They want DC to think about what engineering discipline they want when applying. There’s more than enough to learn in 3-4 years. Look for more info about each discipline and see what appeals. There are some very modern courses that are worth looking at.

DD is studying MORSE (not the Inspector!) but her other 4 choices were for joint maths and economics. She wondered about aeronautical engineering at one point. Got 5 offers with A levels in maths, physics and chemistry. None of her choices asked for economics or further maths (it was offered at her school).

@choirmumoftwo I M feeling lighter reading you !
@PresentingPercy I am not sure if you are saying that general engineering is an issue ? Or is it just an observation but take the point to look at the various disciples
I will definitely do more research on MORSE
@NiceGerbil thank you for the honest genuine feedback
@SeasonFinale thank you for the feedback from ‘within’
I am very grateful to all for the time taken to advise and share experience/data etc

General engineering is a subject not offered at very many universities. These courses might have quite a few students who never become engineers. Oxford for certain. Cambridge too. These courses are usually MEng, I believe. So FM will be required at this level. However it’s far from clear what advantage they offer when looking for grad engineer work. They are an advantage for finance or numeracy work.

If DS wanted to be a civil engineer why would he need to learn about other forms of engineering before specialising? Doing civil engineering (Or mechanical, electrical, automotive, mechanical etc) is a full on 4 year course in very good engineering departments. Some universities are top notch at engineering. Some of the others are prestigious but not necessarily so focussed on the individual disciplines. They might be more academic but less practical.

The vast majority of engineers have not done general engineering. They have decided what interests them before university because the disciplines are different. Most practicing engineers would not think general engineering confers any advantage. It’s MEng that confers the advantage. DS could become a chartered engineer more quickly. The best engineering universities have so many options, students will find plenty to interest them and, if anything, are better equipped for work by specialising. All major engineering disciplines are massive subjects so doing as much as you can can be a better option (unless they want to work in finance etc - then it won’t remotely matter).

I did a degree in engineering and the best A level combination would have been Maths, FM, Physics and Economics. MFL would have also been useful and as my school didn't run FM for my cohort I wish I'd done MFL instead of chemistry (which I hated but school kept telling me I needed) - chem is only necessary if you want to do Chem, Materials, Biochem Eng or any such course, it's a waste of time for Mech, Civil, Elec or Systems Eng, I found!

It is. However Geography should now come into the equation if a DC wants Civils. Climate change is impacting engineering.