Durham or York, which is best for history?

[Twisique]

Does anyone have any experience of Durham or York history?

Trying to see which has the broadest range of topics and biggest department. Which is the most highly regarded?

Hull is very well regarded for history, though MNers are snooty towards it (for the record I know lots of lawyers who did law at Hull and they've done just fine, working at top city firms etc).

Another one worth looking at is Southampton if you are not wedded to the north-east.

Hull is really big on slavery and the slave trade what with its Wilberforce connections. I always thought Hull was A Good Uni. Larkin was librarian for goodness' sake. I blame Blackadder!

Hill isn’t considered anything special. Certainly not vs Durham.

Employers don’t care a bit what nuances of history you study. They just look at skills and what a grad brings to the job. That’s why historians, English students, psychologists and anthropologists and sociologists all go for the same grad jobs. And all the others I’ve left out. No employer cares that much about if you have studied the slave trade or the Tudors. It’s what you have learnt regarding transferable skills that matters.

9 hours is high contact time for a single honours. Plenty of universities would be less. The whole point of history is research and not time in lecturers being lectured to. Employers want to know what you can do, not the hours someone else stood in front of you.

Hull - not Hill!

No employer cares that much about if you have studied the slave trade or the Tudors.

In that case, an even better argument for a student pursuing Higher Education (that is still the name of the sector that universities are part of, I believe?) in the area which holds the most interest for them.

Not if the employers prefer Durham over Hull.

Sorry @PresentingPercy - can you give a road map to the employer survey you mentioned? I haven’t spotted the thread

It's here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/4178575-Graduate-Recruitment-Employment

Could be this one?
www.highfliers.co.uk/download/2021/graduate_market/GM21-Report.pdf
www.highfliers.co.uk/

Achieving social mobility targets apparently being the third highest priority for employers (p23), possibly 'employ more Hull graduates' might actually fit the bill?

It was the grad recruitment report. It’s going to be very hard for students who are not stem. So university attended, if you look at what recruiters prefer, does matter. Hull isn’t Durham and there is only so much employers can do to engineer social mobility. It will always come down to who is best for the job. It might be a Hull student. But it’s more likely to be a Durham one. Hull is going down the tables. York holds its place.

@PresentingPercy please could you elaborate on what you mean by it's going to be hard for non STEM students? In what way?

On the thread on what degree you did and what career you are in now, there was a mix of STEM and non STEM graduates doing a variety of jobs. So why do you feel STEM students are more desirable?

I presume all students will have to go through the same assessment and interview process as irrespective of their degree.Are you saying STEM students are more likely to come through the process successfully?

Hi OP. Are you coming back? I'd love to hear your thinking!

On another note, applications to train to be teachers has gone up in a range of subjects. History has fallen slightly. The interesting stat is psychology. We have got a glut of psychology grads it would seem. They perhaps cannot all find clinical type roles so are looking at teaching ( that may obviously have been a carer route for some anyway) . We are going to have many many more psychology teachers than we need in a few years!

York prospectus just plopped through my letterbox, as if by magic!

Thank you all for your thoughts! Durham ranks highest and also offers a variety of related subjects, Ancient History, Classics etc. This may mean that a wider range of topics are available even if lecturers leave.

York is not far below and RG and offers Ancient History subjects as part of History, but no other history type subjects as far as I can see. Its hard to get an idea of what would be available from their list of, for example, second year topics, because they offer only a few. Would it be the case that if the lecturer left the topic goes too? Its also hard to get a sense of which is the bigger department.

To be fair both look really lovely!

Would it be the case that if the lecturer left the topic goes too

Depends a little on how esoteric the topic is. When the great Sid Bradley retired form York English everyone thought Anglo Saxon would go but it seems to still be there in some form.

But I am not sure ' a social history of cricket' will remain at Warwick Uni if the specialist in this arcane field goes!

St Andrews has a very good history dept and because of the structure of the Scottish degree you can do modules from all the different history depts. DS did ancient, Scottish, modern and medieval modules in first and second year even though he applied under a plain old History degree label.
I know you probably aren't considering it OP, it is more expensive due to extra year (and tents are steep) but it might be useful info for other applicants.

Afaik OP, York and Durham are both pretty large departments, relatively speaking. It also helps that both are desirable places to live and high ranking universities so they attract good staff.

Looking at the website for English , all the good lecturers who were there (in my case York) when I was, several moons ago are still there in some capacity.

They live in tents at St Andrews wbeezer??! Well, I knew cost of living was high but my goodness!

Newcastle is an interesting suggestion, I think it has a large department as well?

Why the concern about large departments? I sense something is bothering you?

I know, I know, league tables ... pinch of salt etc but history league tables
(CUG):

Durham 3rd (same as last year)
York 12th (6th the year before)
Newcastle 29th (24th in 2020)

I think the advantage of a larger department is breadth of options. Less concern if a lecturer leaves. I assume few offerings are static for years and years. You have no guarantee you will ever get to be taught by a star lecturer anyway.

There have never been anywhere near enough jobs for clinical psychologists. DD near me has trained as a hospital theatre technician. Another is a journalist. Law has exactly the same problems. All of these people will compete for non stem jobs as well as the psychology grads looking at stem jobs. There are sectors which have traditionally employed non stem grads that are seriously not recruiting in larger numbers now. Eg charity and retail. Stem people tend to be able to apply for a range of jobs but non stem cannot apply for stem jobs. A nurse could go into marketing or sales. A history grad cannot be a nurse. So non stem is likely to take a bigger hit in the jobs market.

@PresentingPercy in a way it's a moot point. I doubt if a non STEM graduate would be interested in a "STEM" job. Yes a job is an occupation but if wanting to turn it into a career, best to do something you are interested in ......

I think this is the lovely Durham lad I mentioned upthread :

www.youtube.com/user/thejackexperience

I misremembered him as a history student when he is actually English but he did history A Level. Your DCs can follow his journey all the way through A levels and revising, uni offers, Oxford rejection, starting at Durham, graduating etc!

He is a delightful young man.

A non stem grad almost certainly cannot do a stem job without retraining. Not so the other way around. An engineer can become a lawyer. A lawyer would have to do an engineering degree to become an engineer. The qualifications go one way. So any lack of stem jobs leads stem people into other spheres of work.