Another Path to Greatness - Part II

[BigWoollyJumpers]

Here we are.

Really sorry to hear about your DD bend. DS was also very low at the beginning of the week, which is unlike him. I think it’s probably a feeling that they’re being swept along in this process and suddenly exams are upon them before they’d anticipated. DS is usually quite methodical about the way he revised, but he feels he hasn’t really had the time. Also, it’s the prolonged waiting for decisions from Durham, LSE, St A etc. They can’t visualise where they’re going to be living come Sept.

DS was saying he was in class and loads of them were saying they don’t think things have worked out for them this year and now they’re considering a gap year. It sounded like a lot have been rejected from St As. Also, it’s been carnage at UCL - god knows what’s going on there! Students who would definitely have been offered places in a normal year being rejected en masse. I’m sure this is all about the TAGs and quickly readjusted cover ratios. LSE have made a few offers now, but day by day, you feel as if that could drop.

Anyway, I tried to get him to focus on life beyond this testing period. Now he’s in full-flow trying to organise a holiday with some friends, but who knows if they’ll be able to travel abroad and they’ve all got different ideas of where to go.

I'm sorry to hear that your DD is suffering @bendmeoverbackwards.
This year's A level students have definitely suffered the most because of this wretched pandemic. And the continuing uncertainty surrounding some university offers is just adding to the turmoil in their lives.

(Gap year) DS1 is still clueless about where he's heading in September. He refuses to chase Oxford again for his feedback (he got 80% in the HAT last year and still deemed not worthy of an offer). And he's still waiting on Durham and St Andrews. It's painful.

Although I"m hoping that no news up to now is potentially good news when it comes to St Andrews......

Sorry to hear that everyone's DC are struggling. The uncertainty doesn't help. I do hope we all hear from our outstanding uni's soon

Can't make sense of the UCL Maths and Economics rejections myself. Even if a Uni thinks a student may go elsewhere, would they not want the best students?

@question

DD had the same phrase in her feedback
but unfortunately there was extremely high competition for very limited places..... sufficiently impressed by her application to put her in the pool and were disappointed to hear she was not offered by another college.

The rest of the feedback was helpful and concurred with her reflections on the interview. I'm hoping she doesn't intend to re-apply however even though it's now looking very likely that she will get no medicine offers at all this year (waiting for 1 more outcome but genuinely not realistically hopeful), so will be re-applying for 2022 entry.

I think schools have always seen extremely good candidates rejected from other universities when there does not appear to be an explanation. It has long been thought that these universities have thought the student will go elsewhere. I cannot see why they would not offer to the best candidates eitgher, but every year there are odd rejections. I do not know how UCL selects but are they desperate for more overseas students for financial reasons?

I also think there is a danger of this angst continuing for years. If lots of students do a gap year and apply with results, how does that help the next cohort? They then end up competing against more and more potentially well qualified students. And so it goes on.

There might just be an advantage in accepting slightly less competitive universities and doing work experience and other things to improve a cv. It really is not all about what university someone went to. There are soft skills, personal attributes and work ethic outside of university which can help a student do well in the future. Otherwise no-one from Bristol, Leeds, Nottingham or Birmingham for example) would ever get a look-in. That is simply not the case. Reaching for the stars can be exhausting. As this thread is showing.

sorry that should have been @quest1on

I don't believe that Universities reject students because they are likely to be offered places elsewhere. It would not fit with Equalities requirements. They will want the best students and will know that some, say, will prefer living in London to elsewhere. They just allow for a proportion to decline their offers. My impression (and DS was rejected by UCL with a 4xA* prediction including FM) is that it is like public sector job applications - tick box. No interviews so your PS, and other written material, is scored. Poor PS, or rather a poorly focussed PS, and you are out. The trick is to read the website closely and try to dig out what they are looking for and to evidence each point.

Its so random. for all those who are still waiting. It is not surprising that their confidence is being eroded. These are kids who will always have achieved academically, so rejections and waiting are awful. DS cheered up a lot when he finally got an offer.

Needmoresleep you have a touching faith in how far selection boards (not merely in universities) approach equality in their decision making.

@chopc dd did briefly consider a gap year but I think now she wants to get on with her life especially as she is considering a masters/law/further study. I can 'see' her at uni this year, the alternative of another year at home and having the stress of applying for jobs (probably difficult) and possibly limited travel opportunities.

@Longtimenewsee

Sorry to hear that your Dd is struggling *@bendmeoverbackwards*. Dd also had a period where she didn’t seem in a good mental place and I was very worried about her. Not having any certainty about the months/ year ahead and a lack of control about their situation is really stressful. I have everything crossed for your Dd and hope she gets some good news soon so that she can then shift to looking forward with excitement .

Thank you *@Longtimenewsee* and I'm sorry to hear about your dd. I hope things have improved for her now.

I am sensing that this year's cohort are being encouraged to suck it up and move on as PresentingPercy has indicated.

Will schools want larger "Y14" groups of "extremely good" candidates, competing with their subsequent Y13 cohort ?

Will Universities want to have to disappoint another group of extremely good Y13 candidates because some places have gone to Y14's with grades in hand.

Will those Y14's grades in hand even be credible though given the lack of uniform approach being applied by schools in arriving at grades and will this lead to Uni's ultimately discriminating against them a second time but this time as Y14 applicants ?

The damage set in motion last year was possibly actually only felt by a few of last years Y13s (who presumably re-sat in the Autumn or will get TAG's this year).

It's this year's Y13 cohort who are seemingly not getting a fair chance by comparison and to discourage them from re-applying seems to be throwing some under the bus as collateral damage about which nothing can be done.

Sorry to hear about your ds @quest1on it's really hard for us as Mums (well I assume we are all Mums, apologies if I've got that wrong).

I agree with you about reapplying. I think next year is going to be tough as well unfortunately. I heard that in Scotland they are not taking any dentistry students this year because last year's cohort have to repeat the year!

The effects could go on for a couple of years. Which is why I think my dd, and any students really, should accept a place this year if they have decent offer.

The UCL issue sounds awful! I really feel for these poor kids who have been through so much. LSE and Durham really need to get their act together. It is so unfair to keep students waiting all this time. They can't apply for accommodation anywhere else until they have firmed up.

@SATSmadness that's very good feedback, your dd has done very well. I've heard Medicine is extra tough this year, one of dd's friends also has no offers. Fingers crossed for the last one you are waiting for - you never know!

SATSmadness Has your dd got a fifth reserve for something STEM? I know of quite a few students over the years who have, for example, started a BioMed degree and moved across to medicine after a year. Is this still even possible?

I've been helping out at school with processing covid tests this week. School have been fantastic with how they have arranged the testing so professionally. They had wooden booths built by a carpenter, teams of test assistants, test processors and test readers, full PPE etc. They did over 3,000 tests over 9 days and only 2 positives! Even allowing for LFT being inaccurate, that is still very good news.

Both positives were in Year 9 which is my dd3's year group, luckily she wasn't one of the close contacts.

Of course it's complete poppycock that a university like St Andrews would reject a top student because he was an Oxbridge cert.

IIRC the boy in question had offers from Cambridge and Imperial for Computer Science but really wanted St Andrews as he has a single mum who is soon to be moving to Scotland with his younger siblings.

And what is an Oxbridge cert? It seems that lots get in with mostly 5s and 6s at GCSE these days and many more get rejected with straight 9s.

@bendmeoverbackwards How odd, it was year 9's testing positive at my DCs school too, although more than 2 of them and the younger sibling of one of them !

What is it about year 9s ?

@BigWoollyJumpers

Yes, DD got an offer for 5th choice really quickly but just submitted the application as she wanted to feel that a Uni somewhere wanted her, iykwim.

I've read that you really shouldn't see this as a back-door possibility though. Wastes a place on another course which could have gone to another applicant if you were successful in getting a very rare transfer to a medicine course and funding an extra year of living costs would be a massive strain when overlapping with sibling also due to be at Uni by then. I also think you only get tuition fee loans for 4 years worth of study (NHS picking up fees for later years of a medicine course) so there'd be that extra cost to factor in too.

I think, even if unis believe a candidate is an Oxbridge “dead cert” based on grades, PS and reference, they can’t possibly know how the interview went. DS and many of his friends might have looked like Oxbridge applicants on paper - particularly as they applied before the Oxbridge deadline with nothing less than a GCSE 9 or A* in sight. But, despite this, UCL made DS an offer back in early Nov, so the theory that UCL or other unis are trying to second-guess what candidates other offers might be doesn’t really hold, in my view. I think he was just lucky that he applied early. I bet my boots, I’d he’d applied in Dec / Jan after the announcement that exams were cancelled, he would have been rejected with the exact same paper application. As are many right now. They have had to screech the brakes on in terms of offer ratios.

Anyway, if unis are so sure that a candidate will be headed to Oxbridge, then surely, it’s even more reason for to make an offer to that candidate. - ie. knowing that they can afford to do so as it will be turned down anyway, or used as insurance. I don’t think they would reject a stellar candidate in guesswork - rather they would just build this type of likelihood into their cover ratio algorithm. I don’t think they can afford to play games with admissions - there are too many variables. And what about US unis - how could they predict this? Loads of DS friends with top grades didn’t even apply to Oxbridge because O snd C have quite limited courses actually snd not many combos, so didn’t offer the course they were after. How would St As possibly know if someone had an offer at MIT or Wharton Business School for instance?

SATS - what is your DD waiting on now (sorry I’m losing track).

I read you @bendmeoverbackwards

And @SATSmadness everything crossed that your DD will have a positive outcome from her final option. Do you think for medicine there is something to be said about applying strategically? Having said that a DC who got an offer from Cambridge a few years ago got rejected from Keele medical school - I only heard of Keele when his mum mentioned it

I don't think it's in our DC's interest to take a year out in the Hope that next year will be better. If AL takes place next year I feel that this year's cohort with their TAG's will be at a disadvantage because I feel their results only have meaning within their school due to lack of standardisation nationally. I hope I am wrong of course

And what is an Oxbridge cert?

Well, they may have exactly the profile of the boy you mention, with his offers from both Cambridge and Imperial....

I don't follow chopc ? With medicine the advice given from various quarters is that it's ALL about applying strategically (and DD was specifically advised in this matter by school).

The Keele rejection of a medicine candidate who had got an offer from Cambridge is a prime example. The candidate may have had a weaker supplementary statement (required by Keele) than other Keele applicants but the info in that statement not being required by Cambridge would lead to Cambridge forming their decision based on other criteria relating to their cohort of applicants.

Sorry that should have been @chopc

I learnt something new @SATSmadness . Very different to my day of course