Move at Sixth Form - to do or not to do?

[nononsencemum]

That is the question... ;-) DD is currently at small but fairly academic Surry independent girls only secondary. She has developed a passion for Physics and wants to study the subject at Uni.
We are trying to work out whether there is much point in moving her to a stronger, better performed secondary for A-levels where more children take Physics at A-level so she can get more exposure to the subject and study in the bigger group (rather than a fairy few taking it at her current school).
The cons of moving are (1) she is happy at the current school and has a stable circle of friends, (2) she is a known quantity at her current school - the teachers know her after she's been embedded in the school life since 11 (3) it will be disruptive for her education - she is bound to take some time to get used to a new schools, its teaching, make new friends (4) it's 18-months only - is it really worth it?
The pros - as I understand - are (1) she will get more specialist teaching in Physics and bigger/ more enthusiastic study group (2) it will enhance her chances of getting into a good uni (we are looking at Oxbridge/ Durham etc ) as stronger performing school (3) it may well be a stepping stone form her cozy, happy Surrey school into the different world and a good prep for uni.
We are looking at KCS (they admit 55 girls into their Sixth form), WHS, Putney High, Latymer Upper and possibly Epsom College or Reed's.

So my question is - is it really worth moving at that stage (18-months only) and if so is it not too disruptive for their education? And most impo - does it really make a difference what school is she going to submit a uni application form if A* at Physics at A-levels (fingers crossed)? We are rather confused at this stage so would really appreciate your views. Thank you

I went to a small independent all girls school and developed a love of Physics.

Studying A-level physics as one of a class of 3 was brilliant. I think we learned a lot more deeply by being a small class. Each of us was only there because we loved it. By comparisson the Chemistry class I was in had 15 pupils and didn't have the same vibe.

I then went on to study Physics at Oxford. The thing about Oxbridge learning is that you are expected to be sufficiently enthusastic for your subject, hungry for knowledge and intelligent enough to read and understand in-depth texts that you don't really "need" much in the way of "teaching" - you still get the lectures and tutorials but you are expected to come to those having done the ground-work of reading and problem-solving so that the teaching time can be used to discuss and explore the ideas in a greater depth, and develop really strong skills in the subject that learners who need more spoon-feeding just don't get the time to do. If that is her aspiration, then she will thrive at A-level at any school and there's no need to disrupt her life by moving to another school. A larger physics class at a mixed school won't necessarily bring much benefit to her.

If you are happy with the teaching at the current school and she has good friends I would leave her where she is. I think smaller class sizes are better.

Our daughter was at small girls-only Grammar School and moved to a sixth form college. It was the best thing we could have done. She blossomed academically, the teachers were more worldly and they gave her excellent support for uni applications. Looking back, I only wish I had had the option to move to a sixth form college where I would have been treated more like an adult than a large child. I don’t, however, think there is much to be gained by moving so that she will be in a larger class. There are private tutors and companies who can help tutor her for Oxbridge if the currrent school is inexperienced.

Are you also looking at changing to boarding? DD has two friends who moved from her superselective girls only to Epsom/Reeds, but both were because they wanted to do PE A level and one was also for boarding. I know other girls who made the decision to move to KCS or Latymer because they had been at all girls from Reception (and in some cases, the same all-girls school from Reception) and fancied a bit of a change!

We considered this very carefully for DD and in the end decided to leave her where she was. For her, her circle of friends and supportive teachers were a part of her academic success so far. We were worried that if she she had an academic/pastoral 'wobble' in the September/October at a new school, this might become her accepted ability/personality, whereas if the move to 6th form/A level syllabus caused her problems at her current school, people would be more likely to give her the benefit of the doubt.

I also agree about the benefit of small classes at A level. I'm sure you've checked the Physics results at your current schools for the last few years - if some girls are getting As and A*s, then your DD should be fine.

You might also want to check the boy:girl ratio in Physics classes at LU and KCS (@sandybayley might know).

Provided the teaching at A level is of good enough quality at the current school then I would echo staying where she is.
At my DDs school the History teaching (her favourite subject) was great up to GCSE, but tracking the A level results it was clear that at A level virtually nobody was getting the highest grades over several years, so moving after GCSEs was a sensible option for DD.

I wouldn’t move for academic reasons unless you have reason to believe the teaching isn’t good enough at her current school.

It may well be helpful in the longer term to move now for social reasons. Girls private schools can be a bit of a bubble (my daughter was at one until last year - 90 girls in the year). It will be a big jump up to university.

Dd moved for sixth form to a mixed grammar . She’s now in year 12 and has no regrets. She’s made loads of friends, got used to studying with boys and has grown in her confidence. She herself says that for some of her old friends, university will be a big shock.

I think it should be her decision if she is ready to fly in the direction of her ambitions and thinks the school can add that then she should choose to do so. My dd changed school for sixth and has been able to access a whole world of new opportunities (the Gold Industrial Cadets for example). For my youngest it's probably too soon.

If she developed her love of Physics at the current school, then they must have deposited a lot into her regarding that subject. I would therefore see no reason to move her. My only question would be, how often do they send students to the type of universities you mentioned?

I see I have been summoned by @KingscoteStaff !

We moved DD to KCS from one of the all girls schools you're considering OP. The main reason was that the STEM provision is outstanding at KCS (DD is an aspiring medic). We weren't confident she would get the quality of teaching at her former school we'd observed her brother receive at KCS Sixth Form - and have been very happy with our decision to move her. Our particular concern was FM A Level as the number of girls normally taking it was too small. I know small A Level groups can be good but 2/3 felt too small to us.

DS1 did physics A Level at KCS and the teaching was really excellent. You do need to remember that the year group splits between IB and A Level - both are very good options.

We wouldn't have moved DD if she'd been humanities/language focused. Her former school would have been great for those subjects - and she was very happy there.

Both DDs moved from all-girls for co-ed 6th Form (been there since 4-5 yrs old - a change needed as much as anything). Best thing they could have done, not just academically, but socially and as preparation for Uni. Both talk about it being the 2 best years, achieved great A levels, made lovely friends, grew as individuals and are now flourishing at Uni. Few pointers:

• Compare departmental results at A Level - DDs' original school outperforms 2nd at GCSE BUT for at A Level for their chosen subjects, the school they joined was stronger. It can also work the other way obviously. Amazes me how few parents drilled down to look at this detail.
• Try to check out the external tutoring factor as much as you can - rife in our neck of the woods & can really skew actual value-add of whichever school you're looking at.
• How invested is DD in moving? Both mine found first 1-2 weeks in new school exhausting (they knew no-one) - but since drive to move came from them, they were focused from Day 1, committed to making new friends and settled into A level work without any hitches. I can completely see it could have been very different if they'd felt directed by us.

Good luck with whatever your DD chooses to do - moving most definitely can and does work !

Generally IMO there is no disadvantage in looking and applying to other sixth forms if only for her to get a clearer idea of the differences and whether she wants to move
How good is the maths teaching at Further Maths A level at her present school? Are there at least a few very good mathematicians who stay in the sixth form? Maths, preferably further maths, is a critical ingredient for the type of physics degrees she is aiming for. Whether she stays or leaves her present sixth form she will need to develop the thinking skills and stamina to work through hard concepts and problem sheets by herself. That will be helped by extension work through external resources like this one isaacphysics.org/
Whatever she decides she has the advantage that she is already enthused by her subject and therefore self motivated. There are many online lectures available. Also as a girl that likes physics she may be more likely to get opportunities of taster courses at universities like this one www.imperial.ac.uk/physics/outreach/insights-work-experience/

I would echo @jaguar67 in that it matters very much what your DD wants. I was very surprised when mine decided out of the blue to move from the school she was happy at and had been at since reception. She wanted the challenge of a school that was stronger in STEM to support her ambition. Both schools were co-Ed at 6th form so that wasn’t the issue but she wanted the challenge as preparation for Uni. It was absolutely the right decision. She was thrilled to be offered a very generous scholarship and to join a very very strong group of physicists and mathematicians. Socially she loved being a slightly exotic newbie as most of the others had know each other since they were 7. She felt the school wanted her there and she took full advantage. It would be different if we had had to encourage in any way. As it was, she saw it as the first step in making her own way.

Sixth for choice should be up to her, surely? I was in the position of having to move out of an indie 6th form because my parents ran out of money, but that aside, surely it is up to the young adult?
Moving at post 16 isn't disruptive as there is no continuity between GCSE and A level.

My DD has moved from a smallish girls selective indy to the co-ed 6th form of a much bigger selective boys school for A level. Even in the current situation, she has blossomed. She made good friends in the term she was there, and staff got to know her very quickly. Despite being only one of 40ish girls in a year if 150, she has settled really well. She loves having a bigger pool of potential friends. Academically, the new school is better, and the greater size means there are more teachers to cover when others are off, on field trips etc.

Just consider whether a new school will enhance her chances on getting into Oxbridge etc. Some of these schools will be very experienced in Oxbridge applications which is a plus point but she maybe ranked lower within some of these cohorts which maybe a disadvantage eg Somewhere like KCS may only achieve one or two students being offered a place at Oxbridge for Physics (or Natural Sciences) so your dd would need to be highly ranked within a very high performing cohort.

Also just be aware that Dcs can change what they like and excel at in Sixth form. Physics was my dds strongest subject at GCSEs but her weakest at A level, she found Biology and Chemistry more interesting yet she'd hated Chemistry until the last 4 months of Yr 11.

Thank you all - so much food for thoughts!

The idea of moving originated from our discussions about the uni choices which in turn led us to look closer into Physics at her current school. The main drive for move is definitely academics - she feels her school is very good at Physics but not challenging enough, she feels she may need the school that is stronger in STEM to support her ambition to apply to Oxbridge/ UCL/ Durham and is not certain the current one fits the bill.

@Shimy a very good point that she developed the love of Physics at her current school (!) but then the question is whether it will suffice for A-levels? I looked at the stats at her current school and it goes as follows:
2020 - Natural Sciences - Durham
Physics with Astrophysics - King's College London
2019 - Natural Sciences - Bath
2018 - none
2017 - Mathematics and Physics - Bristol
Natural Sciences - Cambridge
Physics - Durham
Natural Science - Durham

A-level results for Physics:
2020 - Total 8 - A2 - A1 - B3 - C1 - D1
2019 - Total 7 - A2 - A0 - B3 - C1 - D1
2018 - Total 4 - A1 - A2 - B0 - C1
2017 - Total 9 - A3 - A4 - B1 - C1

So is it good enough? It is usually a quarter/ third which gets A*/A and I suppose I could say that as long as she is in that cohort she will be fine but then what about other things ie how challenging the whole group is/ teachers/ extension projects.
It actually compares similarly with other London girls schools (WHS, Putney High, SHS) but it is a TOTALLY ball game when we looked at KCS results - mind blowing!

Just one year 2020:
Natural Physics - Bath
Natural Sciences - Cambridge (2)
Natural Sciences - Durham
Physics - Durham
Earth and Planetary Science - - Imperial
Physics with Philosophy - Oxford
Natural Sciences - UCl
TOTAL-41, A*21, A14, B6

So yes the intake is obviously bigger but the proportion obtaining A*/A results is much higher and most impo - KGS has an experience and excellent track record with Oxbridge applications.

I just don't think her current school will fully realise her potential (I think...). It definitely feels like a bubble with 90 girls in the year but this aspect is perfectly fine for her. She gets on with her friends really well, loves rowing (she def wants to continue in Sixth form) but the Physics is not quite there when it comes to A-levels.

All this versus - what a few of you have mentioned - that the smaller class sizes are better and more beneficial...

@sandybayley it was fascinating to read about you DD and her move to KCS. I think realistically that is the only school my DD would really care to move (if got in) as it feels like she would benefit academically so much more. How did you DD find the transition from the small girls to predominantly boys school? That is another aspect I am slightly worried about, she is totally not into boys at this stage so it may all be a bit of a shock to her/ distraction? She has two younger brothers though so she is well acquainted with the male dominated world/ household ;-).

@sendsummer thank you for the resources - so very helpful!!

Sorry I would like to say we are a bit closer to make our minds but it doesn't feel that way just yet. What do you think about her current school results - is 2/3 girls getting A*/A good enough? I think the data speaks volumes but then what about the smaller study group being more beneficial? I may need more stear on this please. xx

After doing all research it seems like we are back in square one - DD doesn't want to move after all. It seems like the familiarity of the school and her friendship group are equally important to her. She will try her best to perform academically but at this stage it looks like we may stay put.

Also not sure whether it is wise to take any risks in the current covid environment, if it come to teacher's assessment for a-levels in a couple of years time then clearly being in a school where the teachers know her best is better than being in a totally new environment (me thinks).

I just hope we are making the right decision in here.. Are we the only ones going back and forth or others have also been torn about the 16+ move?