Universities minister still can't organise piss up in brewery

[titchy]

Thanks Michelle. Do you not think more than one working days notice was needed to tell lab students not to come back next week? How do you propose we ensure our International students who were due to fly back to the UK on Monday to now stay where they are?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/letter-from-michelle-donelan-to-higher-education-providers

Yep. Several of my students will be going back to their halls anyway. Flights booked before Xmas. Others started coming back this week because...they wanted to.

I have no idea whether we'll be in person teaching on 18th or not.

I thought my expectations couldn’t get any lower, and yet here I am surprised at home much of a fuck up it is. Again.

Clear as mud as per usual.

I think it is referring to teaching, as opposed to living arrangements. Towards the end it refers to students staying at their vacation address but 'should' rather than 'must' not travel.

Most kids have had no face to face teaching at uni. They are paying for empty accommodation. It’s a massive fuck up and an expensive one for them at that. And now they are being told not to return to accommodation they are paying for.

I can't open the letter.

I know I'm thick but:

why not have them all return at once, quarantine them in their dorm buildings, test them all every 3 days, and isolate the ones who test positive until no more transmission.

Why is filtering them in over a longer period better?

It's a 6 page letter but basically says bring students back in waves according to what they study, with some flexibility for vulnerable/poor/disabled kids.

tbh, we are paying to have DD out of our hair & for her to have a social life with peers.

Thanks for link btw. I've sent it to DS, he's an adult and can make his own mind up about what to do.

@lljkk

It's a 6 page letter but basically says bring students back in waves according to what they study, with some flexibility for vulnerable/poor/disabled kids.

tbh, we are paying to have DD out of our hair & for her to have a social life with peers.

Except it's different from the previous guidance issued on Christmas Eve.

None of it is legally enforceable on the student though that must be stressed. But if you were expecting your chemistry students (originally all science students were recommended to return in the first week) to start their labs on Monday, you have one day to amend your plans and let your students know. And if they've booked plane or train tickets already - tough on them.

Yeah, DD already booked her train ticket (tomorrow). She hasn't been told anything official by her Uni not to return so soon.

Too late...my DS returned to his halls today. He has exams at the beginning of January and wanted to back with more reliable broadband than at home. He is doing a science based subject at a London uni. Zero lab time the first term, zero face to face teaching and no reason to go to campus at all, and paying ridiculously expensive hall fees.

DS wants to go back to his science course tomorrow ( not clinical). Should he definitely not go?

Will be interesting to see if some students (particularly first years) decide to throw in the towel now, given the likelihood of all online teaching for much of the term in some subjects, and limited socialising again.

To some extent it will depend on the alternatives available of course, and those are not great either.

Does anyone know whether the letter applies to universities in Wales or whether it is up to the Welsh government to decide policy for those?

@Bath789

Does anyone know whether the letter applies to universities in Wales or whether it is up to the Welsh government to decide policy for those?

Applies to England only.

"why not have them all return at once, quarantine them in their dorm buildings, test them all every 3 days, and isolate the ones who test positive until no more transmission."

That is an interesting suggestion. Would need a lot of admin though - and the lateral flow tests are said to have a high false negative rate, so these would have to be the pcr tests? So much simpler administratively just to tell non lab students to stay away and do everything online.

Those who started first year of a 3 year degree course in September 2019 have not had a great deal of 'normal' university time! '

Thanks titchy.

Can someone tell me (I've read it twice and still can't work it out) midwifery students due to go back to placement rather than uni in January will that go ahead?

It says midwifery students can return to F2F teaching from 4/1 but then it seems to say that placements should be postponed?

why not have them all return at once, quarantine them in their dorm buildings, test them all every 3 days, and isolate the ones who test positive until no more transmission.
The vast majority of students at most universities do not live in university halls of residence (dorms being something they sleep in at boarding school, or in the USA?). They live as normal members of society in normal rental accommodation in the community. So the university can say that they may not come into university buildings without fulfilling condition x or y re tests etc (and yes, I also read that letter as referring to that aspect, not returning to accommodation), but can make no ruling whatsoever regarding the majority of their students occupying the properties out in the community for which they are paying rent in a normal fashion, to a normal landlord. Possibly the local Public Health team could try to instigate voluntary testing / quarantining by anyone moving into / back into their area following a period living elsewhere, but there would appear to be no legal mechanism for the universities to do that themselves.

Interesting Marchingfrogs. I suppose they could say 'ok you can come back on campus if you do quarantine/testing in your private accommodation first.' Obviously there wouldn't be 100% compliance, though I think the ONS study found students had been more compliant than some other sections of society (contrary to popular belief!) but would reduce the risk.

Alternatively you could require a negative pcr test before the student is allowed to return to campus/university accommodation. Not 100% infallible, but would again reduce the risk.

vast majority of students at most universities [live in private] rental accommodation in the community

That's the other confusing part, how can there be directives about when students return when they have private contracts for their residences.

So the university can say that they may not come into university buildings without fulfilling condition x or y re tests

DD has had maybe 3 hours total of in person tuition this term and she never needs to go to library; she just about barely gets outside her dorm building once a day, most days. The study pods within the building make more sense to use than treking to library. Must be same for those in private accommodation; they very rarely have reason to go to campus buildings.

DD has had regular in-person teaching, at least for the MFL half of her course, as far as I'm aware. They also seem to have had access to study spaces on campus.

She is also pretty good at getting out of the house; she lives in an area with plenty of green spaces within walking distance and is generally quite keen to explore her surroundings. If not necessarily much before lunchtime...

My DD is due to go back tomorrow. I think she’ll be going anyway. It’s an exam term for her and she needs to be able to work without distractions.
DS is studying engineering and I thought his 1 labs session a week made him part of the “practical subjects” group but that now seems to have changed.
Another term of misery for our DC.

I just checked our coronavirus information pages for our uni. They are keen to point out that taking a lateral flow test is entirely voluntary. Great. Really fucking helpful VC. Like the government,it's lip service.

Testing is voluntary. Mask wearing is recommended. But in person teaching with students traveling from tier 4 to our tier 3 ( up from tier 2) is mandatory.

What a load of shite.

Students in my experience just want support to be safe and keep others safe. My students have been good in the whole and community minded. This woolieness helps nobody.