Maths at Uni

[Gottalovesummer]

My DD is in year 11 so applying for college places to do A levels.

She's interested in doing Maths at Uni. She's Obviously picked maths A level, but my Q is: does anyone whose child is studying maths at Uni know if further maths at A level is also required? Thanks.

78% of the students doing BSc maths at Lancaster have done Fm.

www.whatuni.com/degrees/mathematics-bsc-hons/lancaster-university/cd/54941828/3744/

Whatuni is good for allowing course comparisons.

don't have maths, further maths plus one other A level

Unless you're definitely very good at maths and you definitely want to do any of maths, comp sci, physics, or engineering other than chem. (with physics for the last two)

And even then do (or at least start) a fourth. Unless your skills are extremely asymmetric and/or the extra subject would impair progress on the other 3.

There isn't one definitively correct answer.

Lancaster doesn't require FM and is 9th for Maths in the Uni league tables.

That's too simplistic.

Oxford doesn't require FM... however if you look at the statistics they accept a considerably lower percentage of candidates without. It's 0-3 a year with as many years being 0 as 3.

What would also be interesting to see would be what proportion of those who don't take further maths get accepted overall and of those who do, how many drop out.
Because when I did maths, it was assumed that you had done the FM syllabus. You would struggle in the first term because you'd be playing catch up. Maths is a big enough shock at degree level (it's nothing like A-level or FM in areas!) without finding knowledge that you don't have is assumed. I struggled in statistics because I'd done none.

And from Lancaster's website they say:
A Level applicants should be studying at least three A Levels, including A Level Mathematics. We encourage (but do not require) you to study A Level Further Mathematics - this will make you eligible for a standard offer usually one grade lower than those who do not study A Level Further Mathematics. Please see the 'Our standard offer' tab below.

If it is not possible for you to study A Level Further Mathematics, think about studying AS Level Further Mathematics - the style of mathematics in Further Mathematics, especially Further Pure Mathematics, is similar to university mathematics and will be excellent preparation for your university studies.

Specifically note it says "if it is not possible", which implies to me that what they are saying is that they will consider candidates who were at a school that did not offer it, not candidates who did not choose it.

@Witchend

Lancaster doesn't require FM and is 9th for Maths in the Uni league tables.

That's too simplistic.

Oxford doesn't require FM... however if you look at the statistics they accept a considerably lower percentage of candidates without. It's 0-3 a year with as many years being 0 as 3.

What would also be interesting to see would be what proportion of those who don't take further maths get accepted overall and of those who do, how many drop out.
Because when I did maths, it was assumed that you had done the FM syllabus. You would struggle in the first term because you'd be playing catch up. Maths is a big enough shock at degree level (it's nothing like A-level or FM in areas!) without finding knowledge that you don't have is assumed. I struggled in statistics because I'd done none.

And from Lancaster's website they say:
A Level applicants should be studying at least three A Levels, including A Level Mathematics. We encourage (but do not require) you to study A Level Further Mathematics - this will make you eligible for a standard offer usually one grade lower than those who do not study A Level Further Mathematics. Please see the 'Our standard offer' tab below.

If it is not possible for you to study A Level Further Mathematics, think about studying AS Level Further Mathematics - the style of mathematics in Further Mathematics, especially Further Pure Mathematics, is similar to university mathematics and will be excellent preparation for your university studies.

Specifically note it says "if it is not possible", which implies to me that what they are saying is that they will consider candidates who were at a school that did not offer it, not candidates who did not choose it.

My son attended a school who offered it, but still got accepted at Lancaster without having done FM, so your last paragraph isn't really the case at all.

He also got offered at place at Leeds which has similar entry requirements, so it seems that FM isn't a requirement from schools where it's offered.

Nowhere has the OP said her dd doesn't want to do FM, she's just asked if she needs to do it. Not the same thing. Taking up 2/3 of your A level choices with the same subject isn't necessarily to everyone's taste.

(and I know a lot of people do it as part of 4 A levels, but the workload of 4 A levels isn't to everyone's taste, either)

@Badbadbunny... What A Levels did he do? DS is Year 11 so has applied for colleges for Maths, Physics and History.
Maths has always seemed to be his strong point and he's had so many teachers over the years who have said that should be his path. History is probably his weakest subject but he loves it. Like your DS he wants to keep his options open but reading some of the comments, maybe he should do Further Maths. It's all so confusing, he's a summer born too so 15 seems too young to be making these decisions.
At the moment, he's interested in Maths, Physics (loves Space) or Psycholology degrees but only vaguely, he doesn't really have any firm ideas, he's never had any moments in his life when he's known he wants to be a doctor or a lawyer or anything. The only specific job he's said is a forensic psychologist, but that's a recent thing and not a definite career choice.

[quote Hellohah]@Badbadbunny... What A Levels did he do? DS is Year 11 so has applied for colleges for Maths, Physics and History.
Maths has always seemed to be his strong point and he's had so many teachers over the years who have said that should be his path. History is probably his weakest subject but he loves it. Like your DS he wants to keep his options open but reading some of the comments, maybe he should do Further Maths. It's all so confusing, he's a summer born too so 15 seems too young to be making these decisions.
At the moment, he's interested in Maths, Physics (loves Space) or Psycholology degrees but only vaguely, he doesn't really have any firm ideas, he's never had any moments in his life when he's known he wants to be a doctor or a lawyer or anything. The only specific job he's said is a forensic psychologist, but that's a recent thing and not a definite career choice.[/quote]
He did Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Economics. At the time of choosing, he was aiming towards Physics or engineering degrees. He lost interest in that during the sixth form and the Uni open days. By doing A level economics, it gave him a real interest in business/finance etc which is where he's now aiming towards with his Maths degree.

hellohah my 'DD is in the same position. Excels at maths and enjoys it , but isn't totally sure that's what she will do at Uni, which is still nearly 3' years away.

Also not sure she wants to limit her options by doing maths, further maths and one other subject.

Also not sure she wants to limit her options by doing maths, further maths and one other subject.

Is there a sixth form she could go to which allows 4 if fm is one of them?

@Gottalovesummer

hellohah my 'DD is in the same position. Excels at maths and enjoys it , but isn't totally sure that's what she will do at Uni, which is still nearly 3' years away.

Also not sure she wants to limit her options by doing maths, further maths and one other subject.

It's so hard isn't it? You open one door and it seems you shut another 5 of them. Have no idea to help him decide. He reckons well end up pulling subjects out of a hat on decision day 😂

For A-levels DS is doing math, computing & a science, to keep options open coz he had to decide when he was only 15, after all. Might end up going for math but more likely computing (though he's realising it's too endless a topic!) or the science as degree course.

Lots of schools that offer FM around here tend to be happy that it’s a 4th subject. Generally it’s the only 4th A level they allow. Unless DC is a prodigy! So I do know that at lots of schools options are kept open for DCs.

FM isn’t necessary for very many engineering courses but of course it’s useful. The same with maths degrees. Depends how high you aim. The truth is, there are not enough mathematicians or physicists to go round so universities have to make compromises. What they want and what undergrads can offer don’t always meet.

I tend to agree that M, FM and one other subject is narrow but plenty of universities won’t care. Neighbours DC went to Exeter with M, FM and Physics for Maths degree. He simply didn’t like any other subjects and that’s not wholly unusual for mathematicians. He wanted Exeter and not anywhere else. With his results he could have tried for a more prestigious uni for maths but likes what he likes!

Some universities will ask for lower grades if you offer 4 subjects including FM than if you offer only 3 subjects including FM, e.g. Warwick:

A A A including A* in both Mathematics and Further Mathematics, plus grade 2 in any STEP
OR A A A* including Mathematics and Further Mathematics
OR A A A A including A* in both Mathematics and Further Mathematics

Phphion thanks that's really useful.

We've got a lot to think about. I just don't want her to limit her choice of Uni, but then again, she's still only 15 and not entirely sure she will end up studying maths at Uni. So she needs to give it all some careful thought.

Thanks everyone for useful comments.

did is in her first year of a maths degree.
She wanted to do FM but it wasn’t available. She did economics instead and Biology