Conservatoire vs Music Degree?

[maggiethecat]

For a long time we thought dd was keen on conservatoire and so encouraged her to be looking at the various options here and abroad. More recently she's been talking about a university degree in music. (she can start conservatoire/uni in 2021 or take a gap year).

Other than knowing that conservatoire is more performance based than degree courses can someone explain what the differences are likely to be generally between these 2 options. Do they necessarily open up different career paths?

Movingonup20 - I'll encourage her to look at Manchester and Birmingham as she may consider a non music degree and these places may allow her the opportunity to keep up her music playing if she would like to keep post grad conservatoire as an option.

Did your Dd defer an offer in order to do a gap year or did she not apply in her last year of school but take a gap year and apply in the year of uni entry?

cant, sorry, you are right. I meant university will keep more options open. "Xenia, by BMus you mean 'a music degree from a university', don't you? As i said above, Conservatoires award the BMus degree, so your distinction isn't quite clear."

My DD is going through this right now and has applied to both Conservatoires and University to keep her options open. She's going to see what comes up, but it's been a lot of hard work applying for both.

@goldenlilliesdaffodillies

My DD is going through this right now and has applied to both Conservatoires and University to keep her options open. She's going to see what comes up, but it's been a lot of hard work applying for both.

Expensive with some of the audition costs too! Best of luck to your Dd and @maggiethecat Dd

Goldenlillies - I think Dd will put in a uni application in January and see what happens; If she decides against uni (or considers a gap) she'll do conservatoire application next round.

It's not just effort and cost of applying to both it's also the tutor consultations for conservatoire if you have particularly tutors in mind. 😱

Thanks Orangecinammon

I'd only recommend Conservatoire if the student is dedicated to performing.

If there is a chance they'll want a different career it would probably be better to do a music degree elsewhere.

A handful of singers/instrumentalists from my BMus course (at a uni) have gone on to be performers so it isn't the case that you absolutely must go to conservatoire to have a chance of performing afterwards.

Also, the impact of Covid on the Arts needs to be considered very seriously. I know a lot of musicians are pretty much out of work at the moment, especially those who don't have other strings to their bow (teaching being the most common).

I work in music and manage to earn (a very modest) living by having a portfolio career covering 4 or 5 different areas of music. I'd hate to be trying to get by on just one or two of these at the moment.

It depends on her instrument but assuming it’s classical then she will probably know already if she’s at an appropriate standard for one of the good conservatoires (RAM, RCM, GSMD, RNCM). I wouldn’t include Trinity, Birmingham or any of the others in that list but it may depend on the instrument. If she’s not good enough to get a place at one of those then highly unlikely she’d ever “make it” as a classical performer. If that’s the case then she would likely be better off going to university as a music degree will be more rounded and likely more recognisable to prospective employers.

If she is good enough for one of those then that shouldn’t rule out university either. It’s very common to go to uni (to read any subject, music not compulsory or even an advantage- they only care about performance in the audition) and then to do a post grad at a conservatoire. If she’s not sure about dedicating herself to performance that might be the way to go.

In terms of the actual courses, conservatoire will be c.80-90% performance based, with a small no of modules on things from music history to teaching. University courses will be the other way round - majority academic courses and an optional performance module. So day to day life will be very different. When choosing a university look at the extra curricular music available (eg how good is their symphony orchestra(s)).

Fwiw I’ve been to both a conservatoire and oxbridge (didn’t read music) and nearly all my friends and husband are musicians, some teaching at conservatoires. Feel free to DM me if you have any questions.

I would (respectfully!) disagree with the previous poster about Trinity and Birmingham - both are good conservatories which regularly turn out successful classical performers.

It's a very different experience as a pp has said. A conservatoire is very much performance based and music performance is the mainstay, people really do live and breathe it - lots of hours practicing.
It's worth considering that many conservatoires in London especially have no halls of residence either so student accommodation will vary between housing with other students not necessarily in their first year and lodgings within a household.

Just to clarify on the student accommodation, they do have halls of residence even at the London ones. A quick review of their websites would confirm this.

@Bramshott

I would (respectfully!) disagree with the previous poster about Trinity and Birmingham - both are good conservatories which regularly turn out successful classical performers.

My husband went to Birmingham and I know numerous successful performing musicians who trained there.

I suppose depends both on your definition of success and “performing musician” - are we talking string quartets at weddings or member of a top symphony orchestra? It’s just a fact that no one capable of getting a place at one of the conservatoires I’ve mentioned (for classical, can’t speak for Jazz or anything else) would ever choose Trinity or Birmingham over them unless there was some other factor (like a massive scholarship or location or something). It’s like comparing say Oxford with a non-Russell group university.

We are talking soloist with a major opera company.
An in demand pit player for touring musicals
Regular gigs with an internationally renowned theatre company
Opera company chorus member
And that’s just off the top of my head.

I have no skin in this particular game - DS is not a classical musician, so the 'pecking order' for his genre is different. Out of curiousity, I looked at the 'Meet the Orchestra' section of the CBSO website, thinking that if any symphony orchestra was likely to employ Birmingham graduates, it might be that one.

There really aren't all that many (though i confess to not checking everyone in every section), compared with those from Royal Northern, or even Glasgow, as well as the RAM / RCM / Guildhall trio.

I don't know whether this is true amongst the younger / newer recruits / those who are not permanent members - as I can see that the senior members of the orchestra would represent the 'pecking order' of conservatoires quite some time ago.

As I say, completely not my area of music, just the last few posts piqued my interest.

[Note - playing in a symphony orchestra is not the be all and end all of a career in music. DS, as I said, is a musician who will never play in one simply because his passion is for a different genre.]

@Comefromaway

We are talking soloist with a major opera company. An in demand pit player for touring musicals Regular gigs with an internationally renowned theatre company Opera company chorus member And that’s just off the top of my head.

I did say it depends on the instrument - I don’t know much about singers so perhaps it’s different there. Singers are generally a different proposition because voices mature later, so someone who wasn’t stand out at 18 can develop into someone exceptional later.

But of your examples that apply to instrumentalists then playing in touring musicals isn’t really what most people applying to conservatoire aspire to do. I know several who do it and it’s pretty soul destroying to play Les Mis night after night when you’ve spent your entire youth preparing to give classical concerts.

I’m sure there may be a handful of people who progress really well once they get to a lower tier conservatoire. If so then they are likely to go on to postgrad at one of the institutions I’ve mentioned. DH teaches at a London conservatoire and a non-London one (not mentioned here) and is involved in auditioning for both and the entry standards and expectations are totally different.

I agree that playing in a symphony orchestra isn’t the be all and end all, but it’s far far harder to make it as a chamber musician or soloist. If you can find a single performer in one of the top orchestras or in any chamber recital series this year who studied at say Birmingham as an undergrad I will be very surprised.

Even in my year at one of the places I referred to above only a handful are still performing a decade after graduation.

Really! Playing for musicals is great and the musicians I know who do it love it, one also plays classical gigs and over the summer she did an outdoor gig playing for one of her idols. She also does chamber music.

It’s actually my sons dream to be a pit musician /MD.

Probably worth specifying 'a conservatoire that has traditionally been less well regarded for classical instrumentalists', rather than a 'lower tier conservatoire'.... the perceived order for other genres of music is, obviously, different.

@cantkeepawayforever

Probably worth specifying 'a conservatoire that has traditionally been less well regarded for classical instrumentalists', rather than a 'lower tier conservatoire'.... the perceived order for other genres of music is, obviously, different.

If that was aimed at me, I did make that clear in my first post. And agree with you!

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree @FolkSongSweet. Whilst maybe RCM & RAM have the "best" reputation (and of course being in London means you're more on the spot for opportunities), I don't think it's that helpful to give the OP (and anyone else reading this thread) the impression that Trinity and Birmingham are not good conservatoires which regularly turn out professional musicians who have successful orchestral and freelance careers. In my rather niche area of classical music, Trinity has an extremely good reputation, certainly up there with their the other London colleges. In many ways, especially at postgrad level, it can be more about the particular teacher you want to study with rather than the institution.

Sorry to derail your thread a bit OP! I'm just aware that other people, perhaps looking for similar advice may well be reading the thread, and that this isn't an area where your average parent has much knowledge or expertise (because hell, why would they?!).

I do disagree @Bramshott. A quick look at the Birmingham and Trinity alumni pages (ie the graduates they want to boast about) have no prominent classical instrumentalists at all.

Music college (like all university level courses these days) is very expensive, especially as it’s a 4 year course at undergraduate level. When you’re about to hand over thousands and thousands of pounds to an institution it’s important to be clear about what you’re doing, why, and what the likely outcome would be. In reality the vast majority of young people will audition at several institutions. If they have hopes of being a classical performer but only get offers at say Birmingham and Trinity then they need to be realistic about what this means. It’s more misleading IMO to say that these places “regularly” turn out musicians with successful orchestral careers. It’s simply not true.

They have to have permission to put their alimni on those pages and if they are anything like my dh they tend to ignore communications from their old college or they don't have forwarding addresses.

Whilstt doing some research on my husband's peers I found a couple from his year who have made solo classical recordings and many with sucessful portfolio careers.

I appreciate all of your comments.

Different perspectives are fine. At the very least they offer a starting point to make our own enquiries and investigations suited to our situation.

I've found this thread really interesting DC has been offered places at Birmingham and RCM (the latter probably with a scholarship). They are very torn - obviously the reputation of RCM is phenomenal probably best in the world for their area. However, given the user name, they are less keen on the location and would like to be out of London. For their instrument only RBC is really an option. (Birmingham is also a lot cheaper re accommodation etc). Would RBC be such a step down that it might impact their career in the future?

Yes (I am afraid).

However I understand the issue. None of my 5 children wanted a London university because we live in London and they wanted a change. They do have friends who stayed in London though and it was a different experience because they were not living at home etc.