Economic degrees - anywhere else good apart from Russell Group

[MyBoysHaveDogsNames]

Hi

My son is interested in doing Economics at uni. He is still actually doing his GCSEs, but thinking ahead is motivating him.

He would like a BA rather than a BSc route and is thinking of Economics, Geography and either Business Studies or English Literature A Levels.

I have looked at courses on theuniguide and on the Russell Group list and there are lots of good options.

Has anyone else had any good experience of somewhere non-Russell Group? I didn't go to uni myself until I was old! So I haven't got much of a sense of how universities are perceived if they are not RG.

Thank you for any help.

www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14729
This is lifetime earnings but similar results. In case it’s not just me who is interested. Thanks for highlighting guymere!

And the one you cited guymere
www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/DFE_returnsHE_exec_summary.pdf

I'm an economist but not in UK, and not familiar with UK universities really. London School of Economics is highly regarded, wondered why it hadn't come up on this thread?
University of Manchester has a very good teaching team for Law and Economics (which is its own specialty of economics).

LSE is a member of the Russell Group and the OP's query was regarding universities other than those in the Russell Group, which is probably why LSE hasn't been suggested, as it would be a given.

Has DS seen his school careers adviser yet? He will get a lot of information on deciding on a course of study, making a realistic analysis of his strengths and weakness vs course requirements and researching a suitable university. For example, the course content for Economics can vary, with different emphases across universities, so he might find a better fit with his interests and strengths by looking this rather than just the university.
Three points to consider.
a) To do well in either Economics or Business Studies requires a good grasp of A level Maths.
b) The best university for studying a particular subject may not be the best university for your son.
c) Where do graduates, in the degree your son wants to study, eventually get jobs? In other words, was the degree relevant to their employment?
This link will help you identify the best UK universities for Economics etc.
www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings/economics

If your DS is interested in the social science aspect of Economics have you both had a look at International Relations? When I first heard the term I thought it sounded ‘soft’ but I’ve since changed my mind! It can also be combined with economics, year in industry/overseas etc. It’s great that he/ you’re already looking at options. Order a couple of prospectuses and have a flick through them as there’s likely courses you/he may not have thought of.

I agree Geography might be a good degree course - and there may be options to do some economics modules alongside - some universities offer very flexible courses - either liberal arts or Exeter's "flexible combined". There is so much out there.

A geography and economics degree would make you very employable I think.

Don’t forget the DS in question didn’t want to do maths A level. The “best” courses will require maths A level. LSE et al are not a maths free zone! So that’s why what university might be a possibility is a more difficult question. Without maths A level, post grad opportunities might be limited too. There are studies that say pre university qualifications count for a lot. Stem subjects boost earnings. That’s why the best universities that require maths for economics are “best” for grads in terms of earnings.

Thanks for the links. Those reports are interesting reading.

I think the concept of a "best" course is misleading.

Its all about course content and fit. Some courses can be very mathematical (Cambridge, Warwick, UCL, LSE and to a lesser extent Bristol). It is debateable whether this makes them "better" courses except for people who want to hire quants.

Taking a course with more maths content that you are comfortable with is a recipe will probably be a miserable experience. OPs DS is probably quite right to recognise his strengths and weaknesses.

DS got two good pieces of advice at school

1. Don't take maths A level is you don't have the aptitude. It is an easy A level if you have a talent for maths. Very difficult if you don't.
2. Do as much maths at school as you can, as there is more teacher support than at University.

Enjoying and having some understanding of economics, without being a natural mathematician is fine. It comes down to course content. There are lots of subjects where economics can be an interface. Psychology, history, geography, politics, philosophy, law, languages, business studies, accountancy.

First find the courses that don't require maths A level, then filter out those that indicate that actually maths A level will be a huge help. Then look at course content. What sounds interesting? What about other factors: University life, university prestige, future prospects.

Enjoying and having some understanding of economics, without being a natural mathematician is fine.

How condescending. It’s not a hobby degree. Some understanding? The people who aren’t natural mathematicians who successfully achieve economics degrees that don’t require will also have some ability.

There are good courses at decent university that offer Economics to students who did not do Maths A-level. My DD1 went to RHUL for Economics and they offered a BA non-maths stream, where they taught the required maths in individual modules (DD had Maths/FM A-levels, btw).

DD2 is also studying Economics, and she really didn’t like the Bristol course when she went to the Open Day. I’m sure she would have felt the same about LSE and Warwick.

She is more interested in the charitable sector and economics of poverty and the environment, so enjoying a more touchy-freely course.

I am sorry. I really did not mean to sound condescending. I wanted to highlight both the fact that some economics degrees can be very mathematical. (DS claimed to have taken more maths courses than his friend studying engineering) but also to counter earlier posts that suggest that maths A level is essential for anyone studying economics.

Courses vary hugely, and it is worth recognising your strengths, weaknesses and interests to avoid ending up on a course that does not suit.

That said it might be worth recognising that having a good grasp of statistics can be pretty important in many more analytic roles.

A while ago but a friends DD dropped out of Exeter, in part because she found the course too mathematical, and restarted happily at RHUL, and then onto a good consultancy job.

No one said maths was essential and it certainly depends on career choice in the future as whether no maths will hinder recruitment opportunities. Some careers are less likely to care than others, as stated. However the IFS study looks at salaries, degree and university attended and comes to the conclusion that some grads do better than others regarding jobs and salaries. It really depends on what you want post degree. High flying well paid job or not. That doesn’t mean that all choices are not valid. It just means you might need to tailor your career choices to your abilities.

Someond suggested that if no maths A level, an 8 or 9 at GCSE would be needed.

To me an 8 or 9 at GCSE counts as mathematical. Not all DC manage this, including plenty who will enjoy economic, and who perhaps have the strong entrepreneurial and interpersonal skills that will enable them to do well. It is always interesting to look at sucessful peoples Linked In profiles. There is always a much wider range of Universities than MN would have you expect.

Guymere, I assume you are a statistician/economist. How do the IFS seperate out other correlations? Looking at my DDs peers who are currently graduating, the bigger correlation seems to be between parental background and graduate job. So someone, say, who has a dad who is senior at JP Morgan, and who walk into a good city job after a good school, a good university and several prestigious internships, may well have had relatively little value added from the University. Indeed the University may have simply been a product of the family and school background. (And we have seen DC who failed to get into top tier Universities, but who have done fine as a result of judious choices in courses, some good internships, high aspirations and being able to stick it out in London till the right job comes along.)

It just means you might need to tailor your career choices to your abilities.

Or, more positively, to your interests...? Tempted to say, surely abilities are a given, because only the deluded would allocate time and energy to the pursuit of a career in a field where they had little underlying talent? But then there are certain politicians...

Well 1500 pa qualify academically as barristers. Around 400 per annum get pupillage. They compete against hundreds from previous years still looking! So it’s definitely not interest that determines success in every field.

If anyone wants to read the IFS study they can decide on what it highlights for themselves.

@minesawine definitely read the studies as these factors are discussed. I found them both interesting reading & thank guymere for drawing to my attention. Whilst these studies are unlikely to change anyone’s choices drastically, anyone interested in economics is likely a social scientist and therefore interested in these types of studies. As always though it raises more questions than answers!

Sorry minesawine I meant @Needmoresleep

The IFS age 29 report controls for background (the list of what they control for and how is in the report) when looking at estimated returns but not when looking at raw earnings.

Comparing the two for economics, there is not a lot of difference in the broad pattern of the Russell Group universities dominating the top under both measures. However, while the post-92s cluster at the bottom on the raw earnings measure, using estimated returns there is a mix of post-92 and pre-92 non-RG universities at the bottom.

There is ranking volatility between the two measures at the level of individual universities, but that would be expected given the cohort sizes and high SE.

The problems with the IFS analysis are largely to do with it being unable to account for what people want to do. I was recently in a meeting where someone from Oxford was bemoaning the fact that their graduates are so civic / socially minded that they are dragging down their ranking by going into "poorly paid" jobs in the civil service!

Absolutely observational but when looking back at DCs reception cohort, the influence of parental occupation has been huge. Many of the brightest kids had arty parents (including some well known names) and have gone on to do arty things. Entrepreneurial parents had entrepreneurial children. The kids of lawyers were often not as clever as the parents might have expected to them to be, but have stuck with the system and did well. Our DC look like they will work for the public sector, following in the footsteps of their parents and grandparents.

I guess economics becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You study money because you are interested in money. And then you go on to make money. DS liked manipulating the data, but he was unusual. A lot of his peers were clear from the minute they started their degrees, that they wanted to work for Goldman Sachs.

The kids of lawyers were often not as clever as the parents might have expected to them to be, but have stuck with the system and did well.

We know from this thread about your DS @Needmoresleep than we do about the OP’s son. She didn’t say he was bad at maths just that he didn’t want to do it. In fact she said he might get a 7 in maths at GCSE. While that’s not the top grade, (and no doubt worse than your son got), it’s still an A in old money and enough to allow him to do Maths A levels in most if not all schools.

Facebook did some very interesting analysis looking at the propensity of people to go into the same profession as their parents or siblings (but that is not the subject of this thread).

I would say that interest, ability and motivations all come in to play. For economics, if you are thinking of it as a route into earning big money because big money is what you want more than anything and how you define success for yourself (which is not exactly an uncommon motivation amongst economics students), then being aware that people who are disinterested in maths or bad at it are statistically and for various reasons, less likely to score a big money job is something to be aware of.

It would be a mistake to think, as some students do, that simple possession of a degree certificate with Economics on it is a golden ticket to big money. These are statistical facts, the conditions under which someone is most likely to achieve something. There will always be exceptions.

If your primary aspiration is not leveraging your economics degree into a big money job, you can obviously consider other things that would be appropriate steps to take to achieve your own aspirations and to have a successful career on your own terms.

Juno, again sorry and thank you again for pointing out my poor drafting.

It was someone else who suggested an 8 or 9 at GCSE or maths A level as minimum to read economics. I agree with OP. There are good courses which don't require a llot of maths. And if the DC does not enjoy maths he should read the course spec carefully, and pick one of those.

was recently in a meeting where someone from Oxford was bemoaning the fact that their graduates are so civic / socially minded that they are dragging down their ranking by going into "poorly paid" jobs in the civil service!

Assuming that it was meant seriously and not tongue in cheek, am I the only one here who finds that statement terribly sad?

marchingfrogs I’m blooming delighted Oxford grads have social responsibility and aspire to make a difference to society. But I I know that’s what you mean too! My DD has a friend applying to Cambridge to read HSPS and her mother is dead set against it as it’s too left wing!! We need clever folk, including economists who have the desire and aptitude to make the world a better place.
Getting back to the OP....
I think his A level choices of Eng Lit, Geog & Econ go together beautifully and show abilities that will be highly regarded for many degrees and careers.
It may be useful to understand why your DS wants to do economics at degree level and having a thorough look at the modules within the degrees. If he’s interested in geography and economics there are degrees around sustainability and environmental economics - so so many branches. This whole process is useful as business studies morphs into economics morphs into something else. And maybe back again. There’s so much out there and working out what he really floats his boat (and definitely doesn’t) is key.