Advice needed for LSE Law

[hiltz]

My DS has recently received his predicted grades, 3xAs, English Lit, Econ and Latin. He was hoping to get at least one A* to meet LSE entry requirements for law. He is thinking of putting LSE as his first choice, ( he says hes capable of meeting this) or should he forget LSE. He has 8/9s for his GCSEs. Advice needed.

There is nothing to stop him putting it down as one of his 5 choices anyway (btw, at the application stage, all applications are regarded equally by the universities receiving them; there is no way to show how you rank your choices, nor does any of them see where else you have applied. Only after you have received all your responses do you pick one as your 'firm' and, if you want to, another as your 'insurance'). With a personal statement that is all about why he wants to study- and is the perfect candidate for - Law at LSE without it completely alienating his other choices. However, unfortunately, if the stated entry requirements include an A* and he is 'only' offering a predicted AAA, his chances are probably not great. In the admissions talk that DD attended, the message was literally, If your predicted grades don't meet our standard offer, don't bother applying.

Thank you for the feedback. I guess it's back to the drawing board for an alternative.

Why did he want LSE? The top law schools are competitive. He can of course study another subject and convert to law. I think you might be looking at slightly below premier league with AAA though. Bristol is A*AA for example. So is UCL. But there are others!

People do want LSE, sadly often mainly for the prestige. But yes, I know, people do want to go into the kind of careers where employers will value this, so it's a valid reason in it's own way. Personally I might want to go there, if I thought my experience was going to be what it was in the early-mid 1980s - the degree pathway I took ( no longer offered) allowed me to choose modules that were for the main part, interesting, stimulating and, dear God, fun. Apart from Statistics, which was a bit of a disaster on my part and Computing, which was a bit of a disaster on the teaching front (each week, we started with an 'addendum' to the previous week's handout, which sometimes explained why however much blood one had sweated over a programming task, it just wouldn't work, but even then, there was a spirit of camaraderie in the attempt). But tbh, I was quite glad when DD decided the place was just not for her.

Oxford law requirements are AAA so this is a possibility. LSE are unlikely to consider an applicant with grades below the requirement.

Not sure this is helpful but to go into law the brand of university really matters. If he doesn’t get into Oxbridge or a Russell Group uni (incl top London) then he should consider a year out and applying again.

Trying to get pupillage or a training contract from a non- preferred university is v hard. Brand matters in law.

That’s absolutely true but Law from LSE isn’t necessarily gold standard. I am not sure Oxfird would be worth a punt. It’s very very competitive so AAA might not cut it there either if he’s not at a bog standard comp. However a sparking score in the pre interview tests would smooth the path. But it’s clutching at straws a bit to think their students don’t have an A*s predicted.

Law at Manchester and Birmingham are AAA. Both have a strong regional presence. Ditto Nottingham, Warwick, Exeter and Leeds. All is not lost if he doesn’t make his aspirational choice.

I meant sparkling in his pre interview tests!!! He might spark as well of course!

My DS is currently reading law at Oxford.

As long as you are predicted the minimum entry requirements you will be considered.

My DS felt the main judging was held on the interview followed by the LNAT. If you attend an indie school, I understand the expectations may be higher for these.

All of my DS's law cohort attended state schools (mainly grammar) bar one international.

I trained at a Magic Circle firm. 2/3 of my intake were Oxbridge. From memory, the rest came from universities (and polytechnics!) including Newcastle, Bristol, Cardiff, Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Kingston, Exeter, KCL,UCL, LSE, York, Nottingham. HOWEVER that was over 20 years ago!

Any law firm will look at any decent university with a good course. "Brand" does not matter, law firms are very conscious of diversity these days and are far more interested in the person than the university they went to, although clearly having a good university on your CV helps and I am not going to pretend that Exeter will be more favourably considered than Middlesex. But there are plenty of good universities out there.

will not be more favourably considered

I thought LSE had some specific strengths including international law, so for some careers a good place to study. .

I have been working at lot with different departments in a provincial law firm. Younger solicitors tend to have studied at places like UWE, Kent and Bournemouth. Senior partners often don’t have degrees. I am assuming this experience is not unique.

I have never met a solicitor without a degree who is a senior partner or actually even a partner, could you actually qualify without a degree before Ilex came in. My dh is a partner in a major provincial firm, we are late fifties and it was unheard of not to have a degree when we qualified. Are you sure you are not dealing with para legals or debt collectors?

Also he would not recruit from any of those universities, usually RG or equivalent or Oxbridge .

No, I am not dealing with debt collectors.

Before 1989 you had to have a qualifying law degree to become a solicitor. Post 1989 there are non graduate routes but they involve qualifying as a legal executive first, I have never heard of anyone reaching partnership via this route .

With mumsnet it’s always major provincial firm and Oxbridge.

Really look at people working in local firms on things like conveyancing and family law for local people. They are not Oxbridge. And my sense is that they are not earning a huge amounts. Those pushing 60 tend not to have degrees, or certainly the ones I have come across. The good ones, and some are very good, have bags of experience and common sense. It is interesting that younger ones tend to come from post 92 universities. Again some good and others not so. Common sense and interpersonal skills seem to be key attributes.

Similarly I knew a barrister who made it via Middx U and then schemes to widen access. She was busy and well regarded and had carved out a niche in defending people of her own ethnicity accused of a specific type of fraud. I never picked up that she thought she was any less capable because she had not been to Bristol. As often happens, particularly first generation University and particularly BAME, is you go to your local University and expect to live at home.

I gave a course 2 years ago and a lady who used to ber a secretary at the firm I worked for in London in the 1980s turned up. She had qualified, was in her 50s and a partner at firm in Kent and good for her. I think she became a legal executive first with the support of the firm and took it from there to qualify as a solicitor (no degree).

We don't know if the LSE person wants to be a lawyer of course. 50% of lawyers do not read law but do a different subject first and then convert (although that means an extra year of studies but it can mean you get into a better institution picking a subject that requires lower grades so it can be a good tactic for some) including my lawyer daughters although I read law.

This is a list of where some trainee solicitors went to university www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019

Out of sheer idle curiosity, I looked up the guy who did our conveyancing for us back in the mid 90s. He was already with a fairly well-known Central London firm at the time (we got him through their connection with our mortgage lenders). The firm he is now with unhelpfully does not mention where it's people qualified,, only when (1953 in one case, it appears). Apart from this one:
After initially gaining a BA (hons) degree in film tv and photography, (X) completed the Graduate Diploma in Law and Legal Practice at the University of Westminster in 1996 and joined (the firm) in 1999.

Of course, it's always possible that all the others are Oxbridge by default and this person's background is their token Diversity Brownie point?

You can work your way in from a less good background in terms of academics etc if you are very good at law and clients like you, work is of a good quality but it is definitely harder. It is hard to move up than down in most careers.

Just looked up staff at the high street solicitors firm I regularly walk past. Normal stuff. Conveyancing, divorce, wills and probate.

Kent and Southampton Solent and two who do not mention a degree. Plus a few paralegals. One of the two partners is a qualified legal executive, rather than a solicitor.

My guess, though I really don’t know, is that few of us can really afford lawyers. So we use conveyancing firms which come cheap with the mortgage offer, or rely on legal assistance which comes with insurance. So my late mother’s carer employer insurance was good on arcane knowledge about frustration of contracts when an employer dies, and presumably have been equally good had she crashed her mobility scooter. Our own insurer (shout out for the nice lady at Admiral) were super supportive when our neighbours started major building works during lockdown without planning permission or a party wall agreement. I doubt people working on legal help lines earn much, though with call monitoring etc quality is relatively easy to maintain. I also doubt they went to Oxbridge. Trouble is often legal services are really only for the very rich or the lucky poor.

The plum high paying jobs will go to high flying graduates. However the mundane stuff still needs to be done, and done competently.

Recent research shows that solicitors recruit from local universities. They may not be high flying jobs or even pay much. My local solicitor firm that did my Conveyancing got their trainee solicitor to do it. So not yet qualified. Little local firms tend not to have very specialist departments. I would be very surprised if Oxbridge people look at these firms very much. However if you go to Manchester or Leeds or Exeter you may well have a better choice of jobs.

I’m interested that no one studying law at Oxford is from a private school. No one? Yes you can apply with AAA but whether that’s going to be a successful application when they only take 10% of high calibre applicants is a moot point!

LSE law would lean towards a city job one would have thought. These jobs a very competitive. There are, of course, solicitors in regional firms from a range of universities but the higher end firms can be choosy. And they are more likely to choose RG educated grads. All these stats are collected. In other areas of law, such as barristers, RG utterly dominates.

@guymere
Sorry I may have been unclear. Out of his Oxford college of six students,all are from state schools bar one international.

@hiltz
Has your son considered the BA Anthropology and Law course at LSE?

www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/Undergraduate/Degree-programmes-2019/BA-Anthropology-and-Law

This course requires AAB:

"Studying anthropology will provide a framework to help you see what is universal to all human societies and what is variable. You will learn to analyse social and political relations and to engage productively in major contemporary debates concerning social justice, multiculturalism and the direction of political and economic change in today's world.

The law components of the programme provide an insight into the legal system, as well as teaching you the technical procedures needed to practice law. It is a qualifying degree, meaning you can go straight from graduating to taking the LPC (Legal Practice Course)."

A word of warning, if your DS applies for this course his personal statement will need to half law and half anthropology showing enthusiasm and motivation in both subject areas. This might be tricky if he applies for straight law everywhere else.

His subject combination for A level seems very good for this course.

Ah. That would make sense!