Looking for integrated medicine courses

[Elizabeth648]

Dd is in year 13 and will be applying for medicine courses very soon but is currently struggling to find universities which strike the balance between traditional and PBL/CBL that she’s looking for as she finds all universities like to emphasise their ‘early patient contact’ and ‘integrated learning style’ on their websites when this perhaps doesn’t reflect the course structure in real life. Any ideas for universities which have a real element of pbl/cbl but not as extreme as Manchester would be greatly appreciated.

I’m in no way saying she’ll come out with 4 offers after interview!! We know 1 offer is all that’s needed- hence her trying to pick her 4th choice wisely.

Too chose applications wisely really should mean strategically. You will find that the majority of applicants for medicine will have A*grades and all the work experience, volunteer placements UKCAT (as was) and BMAT top scores so it's a case of planning where you will have best chance of standing out.

awishes I think I’m being thick here but if we take the example of Newcastle which use a UCAT cut off and a ucat cut off to invite to interview would Dd applying here with a ucat score that would be above this cut off be counted as applying strategically or do you mean that each university values different characteristics, eg. empathy, more than others?
If you mean the first then my point is that she is lucky enough to be in the position that she passes the screening to get to interview for most places as it stands (obviously hasn’t taken the BMAT yet so who knows with that one)

OP you're making complete sense. Also, given the grades which posters detail on the med threads, it's clear that many, many MN DC do not have a straight set of A/ 9s. Your DD appears to have that and a very good UCAT score too. Of course she should feel confident and of course she should pick the four schools that she'd most like to be at, rather than act as though she's some kind of poor relation. I didn't say it at the time but I was pretty clear that my own DS would be fine and get multiple offers. He had top grades in hand (12 A GCSE/ AAAAA at AS), was predicted all top grades at A level, had wanted to be a doctor from a very early age (despite not coming from a family of medics) and had all the attributes that I think anyone could possibly want in a doctor. His subsequent career seems to have proved me and the selection boards right. It's just silly to slate people as smug when they're merely being realistic.

OP I think most schools value evidence of empathy.

There are many excellent med schools that don’t require a full set of A* at gcse - and having a full set of top gcses is only a small part of the picture. The majority of realistic med school applicants have got impeccable academics plus more on top to offer. I think it’s the assumption that your daughter can afford to be fussy which is putting people’s backs up - there are many here whose kids have an excellent academic record but have taken more than one attempt to get a med school place. I believe around 40% of applicants get zero offers - these are all someone’s child, and are all students who are top of their class etc etc.

I can only tell you detail about imperial as that’s where my daughter is, but obviously right now things aren’t normal there either due to Covid.

They have one day per fortnight at a GP placement in the first two years. This is spent doing a variety of things - definitely not sat in a corner watching consultations. They were meant to have their first hospital placement after first year exams (2 weeks) but this was cancelled due to covid. As things stand at the moment the two placement plus the gp placements scheduled in year two are due to go ahead and I believe the three ten week clinical placements for the third years are anticipated to be happening. The course has a systems based approach so they are looking at the same system of the body across all of their subjects at the same time, and they have lots of case based learning to reinforce it. They have a mixture of lectures (online at the current time), seminar groups and small tutorial groups of 5-6 students, as well as skills labs etc. There’s no dissection, which my d was initially upset about but she feels differently having experienced teaching via prosection. Lots of scope for extracurricular learning via visiting speakers and conferences (pre Covid..), and revision sessions run by older year groups. The social life is varied and busy, with support networks between year groups working well. My d is very happy there - she was originally aiming for kings/Nottingham/Sheffield but fell in love with imperial in an open day and never looked back x

A few comments.

1. When DD was applying there were three sitting in the corner of the sixth form common room in March without offers, so avoiding the conversations about accommodation etc. All medics, and probably all with A predictions. DD, who probably had the weakest grades but the strongest EC, then got two late offers. Another, who was a seriously good mathematician, got none but reapplied and gained a place at one of the more research oriented BMAT schools. (Tip, straight A applicants often do better with BMAT applications.) The third worked during his gap year, got promoted twice, and offered a job after University and realised he was probably only applying for medicine because he came from a medic family.

In short academics are one box to tick but not sufficient on their own. And MMI, indeed any interview, has an element of luck.

1. There is a big Welsh contingent at Bristol. Apparently one advantage Bristol has over Cardiff is that placements are less scattered. Cardiff placements are scattered all over Wales.

1. The word is that it is relatively difficult for English students to get places at Scottish medical schools.

If she is doing BMAT anyway she should play to her strengths and consider UCL/Imperial/QMUL. (The last is UCAT, but they like strong academics.) There may be less early patient contact but once you start clinical there is plenty, and some great intercalation options.

You might also ask why she is particularly interested in integrated. DD is very dyslexic, with a strong memory, so has found learning by listening and observing perfect for her (and recorded lectures that can be watched again). Others learn better by reading and note taking. There is not much they can do on placement in the early years except observe and drink tea. DD likes tea, and claims the NHS runs on it, and nurses and other doctors have given her some great opportunities to see things that she may only come across once or twice in a career. But for some, a more rigorously academic first couple of years may suit better.

OP, I'm sorry that you have got some hash comments on here. My DD was similar to yours with A* GCSEs and a very good ukcat (so she didn't do the bmat). She wanted an integrated course and applied to Cardiff, Bristol, Leicester and Newcastle (she didn't want to go to London or Scotland!) She would have been very happy to go to any of them, but picked Cardiff and put Leicester as her insurance.
I have also heard good things about UEA, and one "advantage" they have is that after mmi interview, the ucat score also counts towards the final score in deciding if you get a place, whereas at others I think once you get through to the interview stage ucat and GCSEs don't count anymore.

Just a thing about early placements. They do a lot ! They can do the assessments exactly as they do for OSCEs, take patient histories and DD as a 2nd year could put in and take out a canula, remove a catheter and take blood. Being able to practice OSCEs on real patients has been fantastic she says. Plus her bedside manner is fab as as a student she has time to chat to patients. Her GP placement has been amazing and she's been taken on all sorts of home visits, taken vitals and even done her own consultations (obviously being supervised).
So they do a bit more than make tea 😊.

But that wasn't the point. Of course they do a lot during placements, but what they do is different from what, say, a first year student at Oxford might be doing. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. (Bristol and Oxford medics come across each other in Swindon, and from what O hear neither group feels less capable as a result of their different training.)

Its about what suits. The integrated approach really suits dyslexic DD. Yet she is currently coming to the end of a six week summer school in advance of her intercalation, and both she and I have been surprised at how much she has enjoyed getting stuck into some proper meaty maths.

Which was sort of my point. Different courses offer different balances between the academic and the practical. It is worth considering fit.

@Needmoresleep was just a comment as someone said all you do is make tea and observe. And they don't. Some want this, some don't, as has been discussed before at length.

I did not say that so no idea of why you are tagging me. That said there will be patients at the GPs who won't allow medical students, and waiting for a hospital doctor to begin his rounds. So a lot of tea is drunk.

Sometimes being "harsh" is the only way to get to the uninitiated. It isn't meant to be malicious; rather the contrary - to be helpful.

"If you mean the first then my point is that she is lucky enough to be in the position that she passes the screening to get to interview for most places as it stands..."

The above is a classic example that many posters are trying to flag down OP. I take this to mean that OP is already assuming that her DD has 3 interviews in the bag and looking for the 4th. The so-called UCAT cut-off is only the first second filter that certain unis apply in order to sort out the likely from the unlikely. It does not guarantee an automatic interview. The first filter being needing 3 relevant A-levels (A*AA / AAA etc) to proceed. OP only knows her DD has great academics and UCAT - I'm sure she has and congratulations to that. But OP doesn't know the calibres of other applicants, does she? Others, including myself, are trying to inform OP not to assume too many things and certainly not to take anything for granted.

About which school - we are talking about hoping to become a medical doctor, are we not? By and large medical schools have had their teaching methods devised and developed over a long, long period of time - making adjustments here and there as it goes. So there's no point in saying I like this or that method better. Because at the end of the day (course) you're all going to be tested in your knowledge and competence before being registered by the GMC. Personally, I find it amusing hearing some people say, "I can't stand dead bodies or I can't tolerate bodily fluids; but I want to be a doctor".

@Needmoresleep sigh. I tagged you as you quoted me. I didn't say you said it. Please read carefully.

Hmm. Off topic, but I am on the thread, so no need to tag.

That's a deal. I was only commenting as some people do think early contact just means making tea. But it doesn't 😊.
Interviews on line this year I believe. DD being trained to help do some. Not going to be easy 😞

OP sorry it’s ended up a bit harsh on this thread. I think what you mean is that your DD has great GCSE, great A level predictions and a high UCAT.

DD was similar when choosing her 4 options. Before UCAT she knew her academics were great so had been looking at medical schools that are GCSE heavy in their selection for interview process.

Once she did her UCAT and got a very good score - this opened up both the GCSE heavy and the UCAT heavy options and there was a lot of chopping and changing with her choices too.

In the end, other than a few medical schools where UCAT counts a little post interview, all we can do is try and be strategic and secure interview - then it just comes down to interview performance.

Yes we don’t know how others have performed and yes there will be plenty will brilliant academics and top notch UCAT but a look on the student room shows what past cut offs have been and the interim deciles are out now so you can easily see how they have performed against other applicants to get an idea.

As I think I said on another thread - the “day in the life of a medical student” videos on Instagram are helpful to get an idea of what it’s like to be a student at each medical school.

peteneras my point is that for some medical schools (Newcastle is one I know of) a very high ucat score does indeed automatically mean an interview (given you meet the academic entry requirements) because they rank applicants on ucat score and take the top however many for interview.
I also don’t understand this take whatever you’re given attitude- sure everyone will be tested on the same knowledge but is it not natural for different people to have different preferences on how they learn?

lalaflottes thank you very much. I’ve suggested the videos to her and she’s watched a few which have been helpful

@Elizabeth648 I’m glad they’ve helped. It’s very hard to choose where to apply, especially that 4th choice when you already have your three favourites on your list.

Even though it’s the 4th choice it might just be that one and only offer so it’s still important!

Hope your DD settled on her choices soon and it’s more more thing done and dusted.