American Universities?

[mids2019]

Looking at the leavers destinations for some of the more high profile independent schools American Universities seem popular with an incidence comparable to Oxbridge. Are American elite universities a viable alternative to Oxbridge and are these universities being selected as an Oxbridge alternative or insurances?

They are usually the preferred option either for academic or family reasons.

Schools usually advise applying to one or the other, as American applications are very time consuming. Though people do apply for both.

You normally need to be rich, though a few very bright bursary pupils will alsogain places.

Interesting. The financial aspect comes into it obviously. I was asking to see if these universities are a realistic option for families where an Oxbridge capable child misses a place or in reality there is a greater chance of getting into the American university.

It definitely seems a thing amongst high profile independent schools.. not sure for the rest of the population.

Vaguely remember Oxford rejecting an outstanding engineering applicant and they got a scholarship to MIT

Harvard is the most competitive place in world to get into as an undergraduate. Very much harder to get a place at Harvard than Oxbridge, who are afaik, legally required to take a high % of their intake from British residents.

Maybe ask the schools you're looking at for answers to your questions, OP.

A talented sportsperson might get a good bursary or scholarship which might offset the extra costs associated with being abroad or at least compensate for the lack of student loan when studying in the US.

Top US universities, including Ivies, may give places to talented sportspeople but they rarely give scholarships. Sports scholarships are the domaine of the Universities with big sports programmes, or those hoping to attract students by essentially offering discounts.

I don’t think you can say Harvard is the most competitive University in the world. Competition is ferocious, but MIT, Stanford, Caltech etc are also very competitive. US schools have different entrance criteria, so being first in your family to go to University, a strong sports person or musician, legacy, or something that adds to campus life or diversity, will all help. .

Oxbridge and other top U.K. universities are almost exclusively interested in academic potential and achievement.

It is therefore possible to get Harvard not Cambridge, or vv.

FWIW eight in my daughter’s year group in London received Harvard offers, though this was exceptional.

I have 2 DC in 2 West London independents and its increasingly common, yes. Maybe 20 in each year go. Also, Canada and there are quite a lot who go to French and Italian unis too.

For the US it’s a very different process and you have to be more of an “all-rounder” than if you apply to Oxbridge. You have to have evidence of involvement in sport; plus do many hours community work; charity involvement; music / arts; founded a school society; proven leadership roles, etc etc. Plus some have tutors for SAT exams and they keep taking these until they achieve the requisite scores. University of Pennsylvania is popular for its business school. Harvard, MIT, Yale, Stanford etc all very popular. There are a lot of international families in the schools anyway and it’s seems like the obvious thing to apply as the parents probably studied over there, etc. Many do simner schools over there from Year 11 onwards to get a feel for the different campuses. It’s expensive, for sure. Oxbridge are not interested in super-curricular, so it’s quite a different applications process.

Sorry, I meant Oxbridge are not interested in extra-curricular (sports, music and so on). They do have to do a fair bit of super-curricular in terms of reading round the subject or essay competitions, etc.

The application numbers and ratios are of course not directly comparable because UCAS runs a centralised application process whereby you can apply to either or Oxford or Cambridge (not both except in exceptional cricumstances) whereas there is no such bar to applying to multiple Ivy League universities and MIT say. It’s certainly possible to get into say both Harvard and Oxford (I know of a case) but there are a lot of things that Harvard would be looking for that Oxford wouldn’t and vice versa. But In my view, a fixation on the Ivy Leagues and Oxbridge rather misses what both the US and the UK university systems can offer - which is a fantastic education and experience if you make an informed choice. Or just choose your university in either country and make sure there is a good exchange programme so you have a chance of experiencing both.

I don’t think you can say Harvard is the most competitive University in the world.

Fair enough, Harvard is only #3 on this list (which is probably USA only, who knows what happens in Beijing or Mumbai).

For sheer numbers, there is another list.

But that list is very skewed by the fact that most US students can’t afford to go out of state and California has a large population. (Plus obviously a climate that attracts both academics and out of state students, and which has therefore given critical mass to some world respected institutions.) I think that California has some form of common app for its in state applicants, which will boost numbers.

DS looked at UCLA for his PhD, but was deterred by the fact that as a state university, their funding is lower than the established private universities. Equally UCLA will have access to a good pool of well qualified local applicants, and those who want a break from the cold winters of the North East and MidWest.

We are talking apples and pears. It is impossible to define best, or most competitive. If an applicant is a good fit for an institutions selection criteria, that institution will be “easier” to get into than perhaps a less competitive one.

Firstly, of course there are quite a few american or half american families at high profile independents - the majority of american applicants in my experience have an american parent or at least some family link to america, or are star rowers looking to use that as a currency to secure a top university place. There is also I think a growing trend to use America to avoid the Oxbridge crunch - the rather binary approach that colours some attitudes to UK universities - especially given the large drop in share of UK places secured by independent school pupils over the last 10 years.
However, the astonishing cost puts it out of reach for most families at even the most expensive schools (perhaps especially at expensive schools).
Financially it is of course the worst of all worlds - in America most even wealthy people don't pay school fees, so save that money for the college fund. To pay UK top school fees and then US college fees is really a double whammy that few can contemplate.
Different of course if one can access bursaries.

Top US universities tend to give need based rather than merit based aid. So it’s perfectly likely that the MIT student mentioned above got a scholarship but based on family income rather than ability.

At DD’s US college more than half of attendees get a need-based scholarship from the university itself, and many students get other scholarships from other sources. DD gets a need-based scholarship plus a National Merit Scholarship for example. There are also sports scholarships available but they’re very competitive to get.

Her university does give need-based aid to international students but many do not.

FWIW she gets about half her entire cost paid based on ‘need’, and as a family we earn a good 6 figure income. Her boyfriend is on a full ride at another university as his family earn less than $60k per year.

We looked into it - the main attraction bring the liberal arts programme where students don’t have to specialise in anything for a couple of years and get a far broader education. For your average 6th former with no great zeal for anything in particular it’s an attractive prospect. And lots of talk of the Ivies here but there are thousands of good non Ivy establishments who bite the hand off overseas applicants because they pay top dollar. We were told that A levels are about the same level as first year Uni studies so less of an academic shock too!

Different entry criteria. Academically British universities are at a higher level (due to our a level system) so independent schools with kids who might struggle to get into top U.K. universities push them towards American universities where your SATs (very narrow in focus and can be retaken) matter most and your overall portfolio (all that charity work organising social events that makes just £10 for the food bank will pay off, real example btw). Having a close relation whose an alumni and a daddy with very deep pockets helps. I know people whose kids were at university back in March and dropped out to return to the U.K. and 2 are starting at mid ranking universities here this week, turns out 3 b's gets you into Brown or Caltech, see different criteria

Very much harder to get a place at Harvard than Oxbridge, who are afaik, legally required to take a high % of their intake from British residents

Not true that there is any requirement to take a % of intake from British residents. Apart from medicine - I think that is true for all Universities.

Really interesting posts....

My thoughts with America are that in terms of global rankings they have a number in the top 10 and only oxbridge breaks their hegemony.

It appears from these posts that the entry requirements and application system are a lot different to the UK.

They do seem an option for a few independent schools though. .

The entry requirements are very different - I have one in university and one applying this year, both in the US. I went to a UK university, and DH has been to both US and UK.

It is interesting looking at the acceptance rate for the top US universities. They take 5 to 10% of Regular Decision applicants, but a higher percentage (often double) of Early Decision applicants.

You can generally only apply to one private university ED, and if you receive an offer then you are committed to going there.

If you don't get an offer in your ED application, then you're free to apply to as many as you like Regular Decision, but your chances are generally going to be lower.

There's also Early Action application - I don't recall exactly how that works.

DD's college accepts fewer than 10% of Regular Decision applicants, which I think is a lower proportion of applicants than Oxbridge, and it's not Ivy League.

Having a high SAT score for most of those top universities will help you get in, but often you're up against at least 10 other applicants who all have equally high scores, so the challenge is to differentiate yourself some other way both academically and in terms of character.