Fairness of support-2 DC in University.

[WaxOnFeckOff]

Just trying to get an external perspective on fairness of approach.
I have 2 DSs in uni. 1 lives at home and travels. Requires use of car and then train. Now in Yr 3 of 5 year course. Other lives away as uni is 2.5 hours away. Can walk to uni and into town. Yr2 of 4 year course.

The aim was to support them both to the point that they could save their maintenance loan. We aren't high earners but have saved and live a modest lifestyle so have disposable income. We and they are aware that things change in life so support might not always be possible.

Neither son is grabby or expects anything.

So, what we have done is pay for ds2s accommodation and give him £250 a month to cover food etc. Ds1 obviously gets his accommodation and food already supplied. He also gets £250 to cover petrol and train fares. We pay for car maintenance, insurance etc. DS2 uses the car when home and puts his own petrol in.

We pay for things such as opticians, dentists, mobile phone etc.
We pay for the occasional take away at home and I'll do the odd extra shop for DS2, pay his train fare if coming home/slip him the odd ten or 20 quid if we've taken DS1 out for dinner etc. Ds1 rarely goes anywhere without us, rarely uses car if not for going to uni.

They are supposed to pay an amount equivalent to their loan into their ISA. Ds1 does this, DS2 hasn't. I have no idea how he is doing for money as he avoids talking about it other than to say he has enough. I didn't stop the payments over the summer. DS2 put a fair bit if petrol in car visiting his girlfriend and went out (when it was allowed) a few times a week so will have spent some or all of the £250 per month.

OK, so now most stuff is online. DS2 has gone back to uni as his room was paid for and he wanted to. Ds1 will be unlikely to be going into uni at least until next year. So essentially Ds1 has all his money and no need to spend any but DS2 still needs to feed himself.
I should be giving him more really to put him in the same position as Ds1? Or am I then punishing Ds1 for not spending his?

Fairness isn't always equality so just wondering what you would do?

Obviously I appreciate that other people might not have the will or resources to provide similar funding to their DC.

I think you're more than generous. DS2s costs haven't changed so no need to pay more. DS1 doesn't need to travel so maybe pay less or put the money into savings for both of them?

Thanks beachy, yes we are generous but take the point that there are no pockets in a shroud so would rather give them a boost while they are young and we can see it rather than leaving them money when we die. We are both lucky yo have pensions in place.

What i was thinking was maybe to put an extra £100 a month into DS2s Isa rather than giving him more actual cash. I could suggest to DS1 that he ups his savings too since not spending as much?

So DS2 has £65 per week to cover all food, going out, hobbies, toiletries etc?
I may of missed it but do you also pay for his books, clothes, mobile phone, internet and bills?
Doesn't sound like very much money so I am not surprised he tops it up by using his loan.

However your question is about 'fairness' - and there's no way to answer it. If DS1 stayed at home because he didn't want the loan then it would be appropriate to ensure that they receive the same amount. So I would stick with the £250 each and expect DS2 to use his loan.

I generally stock him up with toiletries, pay his phone, he has no bills as he is in student halls but I would do bills if he was in a flat. He hasn't needed books has plenty pof clothes and gets for Birthday and Christmas and I offered to get him new stuff for going back, he wasn't that bothered but i did give him some new jeans, t shirts and jumpers. Hobbies is mainly walking with his girlfriend.

Originally i really didn't want to fund entertainment thinking that they should get jobs and pay this themselves. DS1 doesn't go out and DS2 has varied between not being interested, being ill, and now struggling to find anything (understandably).

I stocked him up with over £100 in shopping when we dropped him off and will probably do a couple of deliveries during the term to get him the heavy stuff. But I still have a niggle that although he is having a better experience than DS!, DS1 is benefiting financially.

They get on well and know what each other is getting and don't care. It's just that DS1s costs will be virtually nothing for the foreseeable.

Also bear in mind they were both at home since March and getting £250 and both housed and fed. so essentially £1500 - I know DS2 will have spent more but that was his choice really.

I think you are being very generous already. I pay the rent for my dc (who are both away) and the odd thing like phones, contact lens etc They then live off their maintenance loan which I’m sure works out to close to £100 per week so should be more than adequate.

I’m not sure what the point is in taking the maintenance loan if you are just saving it - surely the interest rate charged is higher than you get in most savings accounts?

But if your ds2 is spending the loan and £350 per month from you he is very well off tbh. I’d be concerned if he can’t manage on that & would be wondering about his lifestyle choices.

I don't know what he is spending tbh, He had about £4k to start with which was savings he got on his 18th. He gets £4750 a year (so should have 1 year worth) and then £250 plus extras a month from me. He'll also have some christmas and birthday money on top.

He bought a PC before going back, the one he was looking at was about £1200. I managed to source the parts for £860 and DS1 built it for him. I always struggle with things for Christmas so I paid for £260 of it for his Christmas and said he wont get a big gift, just some things to open. So I guess he does have cash. I know he spent a lot initially at uni which is to be expected but he mainly socialised in rather than out after the first few months.

The reasoning with taking the loan was that we don't know what the future holds, they don't accrue interest until they graduate and don't pay it back immediately. Taking it means it's there if they need it, they can choose at the end to pay it back, use it for a travel experience, fund themselves while looking for a job, use it as a deposit or whatever. I opened them a help to buy ISA. DS1 is paying money into his I opened thema year ago but he put a lump sum in to start and a monthly payment since. DS2 has dyspraxia and struggles with her organisation so I keep reminding him but don't want to nag.

Actually they do accrue interest immediately. It sounds as though DS2 is not saving the loan though but using that in addition to what you are giving him to it may be better to pay his rent and he lives off the maintenance and any extra you save for him.

Different system for the loans in Scotland, we start paying back at an earlier point but don't accrue interest until graduated, we also don't have any consideration for living at home or away in terms of the amount available - it probably works out the same in the end.

I've said to him before about leaving him to live off the loan and for me to save the £250 into his account instead but I suppose I'm trying to get him to be responsible and budget etc

Main issue really is me trying to make it fair to them both.

I don't know for sure that he is spending the loan money, just that he isn't saving it. He's supposed to be getting a laptop and other support via the disability service but hasn't done what they've asked yet and here we are in year two. He needs new glasses (lost his other ones) and was asked to make an appointment weeks ago (there is a few weeks wait) so that he could organise his new ones while he effectively has nothing to do. His girlfriend seems to be having more success at getting him to do the stuff he needs to but I can't really ask her to nag him for me!

It frustrates me as the disability service know that one of his issues is being able to organise and sort stuff (it's detailed in the consultants report which they have), they won't communicate with me and they sit and wait for him to approach them.

I've told them to just send him an appointment detailing what he needs to bring and he'll turn up with it (last minute panic no doubt) but they don't, they wait for him to call them, which he won't. It's beyond frustrating so I've just had to leave him to it.

Your DS living at home is considerably better off than your DC at university. Many parents top up the loan but it depends if it’s the minimum loan or not. Depends on rental costs and what his living expenses are too.

Your DS at home presumably takes his loan but there is no rent to pay. There’s no cost for food either and no mileage rate for the car or any expenses associated with it. Ditto his living accommodation. It seems like it’s all a freebie. No wonder he saves. You are not accepting your DS actually at university will have greater expenses because he seems to be having a true university experience.

To make things equal: do a zero based budget and account for what your son gets at home for free properly. Your other DS pays a commercial rate. Add in everything. Car use, computers, socialising, sports fees, cost of food, payment towards bills (do you ask for any for your house? (Heating, washing, electricity etc) . Add in absolutely everything and be realistic. You are not charging your son at home the same as the rent at university but he has a loan for you to do this, or at least cover reasonable costs.

I would have let them keep the loans and saved separately. That’s what we did.

I suppose doing it reverse meant that they had more to save?

Because DS1 is here, I pretty much know exactly what his expenses are. The £250 would normally cover his months train and petrol with about £20-30 left over.

I just can't get any information out of DS2 to know what he spends.

He is in student accommodation, he has no bills, wifi etc all provided and I pay for his phone and plenty of data and any incidentals, e.g. travel home, opticians, dentist etc. When he is home he has everything paid for and only needs to put petrol in if he's used up what is there. He has enough toiletries to last him as well as all his cleaning stuff and he had £100 of food to start him off. I'm not sure how much he spends on food? Would £250 not cover that with some left over? I'm not funding DS1s social life other than including him if we get a take-away or go out. DS2 obviously gets same when home and I send DS2 extra every now and then and do him a shop from time to time. Looking at last year, he was in Uni about 6 months in total and I bought him 4 shop deliveries - about £90 a time.

He also had several Amazon deliveries including a new kilt jacket (over £100) of things he needed. I cut his hair when he is home so he doesn't spend anything there and he is kitted out well in clothes. I buy him more clothes than DS1. DS1 doesn't care about clothes and lives in t-shirts and shorts at home and substitutes shorts for jeans for Uni. DS2 isn't into designer stuff but does like to look nice.

I think he is short changed (although obviously costing us more in rent etc) but I really have no idea how much unless he tells me what he is spending. I've asked but he just says things are fine - stock answer!

They both get £4750 loan. They both get £3000 from us and in addition we pay for DS2s halls at £4500. They aren't expected to contribute at home. DS2 probably does more miles in the car when he is home than DS1 does all year but does pay for petrol. We pay for insurance and servicing etc.

The key is probably trying to find out a bit more about what DS2 is spending but at the end of the day he doesn't have to tell me even if it would potentially benefit him.

So DS at university stays in his room all the time and never goes out? That’s not the way university life works normally is it? Your DS at home has use of a car he doesn’t pay for. They cannot possibly get the same loan because living at home is a lower amount. Isn’t it? He has no expenses at all! I haven’t looked it up but living away gives a greater maintenance loan than living at home. So what’s the true difference in their loans? The one living at home with exactly the same amount of money is coining it in. It’s not equal in my view.

Instead of interfering with loans and enforced saving, just let them manage on their loans and let the DS at home pay his way from his maintenance loan. Zero base the budgets and then give top ups accordingly. Your DS, if he goes into private rented, will have bills. Your system of funding seems odd to me.

They should use their loans for their expenses, reasonably arrived at. You should save for them if you wish. If you don’t have deposits saved up for houses the ISA won’t get you very far.

As I've already posted, the loan is the same because we are in Scotland and they don't differentiate. DS living away from home gets exactly the same. I love the way you categorically tell me I'm wrong, despite not looking it up and also assuming that I have no idea what loan my DC get. Any student with a household income over £34k gets £4750, doesn't matter if they are living at home or away or if you have other dependent children or students. One of DCs flat mates parents decided not to give him any extra so after rent he had a few hundred pounds to live on while away from home.

DS at home normally has expenses for train and petrol but as everything will be on-line at least until the new year, he currently doesn't have any expenses. DS2 also on-line but accommodation already paid for so he has chosen to move up and use it. He therefore has expenses.

If DS2 goes private next year then he will have bills but probably will be cheaper overall.

His only expenses is food and entertainment. The problem is I don't know how much that is, it would help him if he would have a grown up conversation about it. I'm leaning towards not giving him the £250 and instead putting that straight into his ISA and leaving him the £4750 to live on. I'd like them to both come out in a decent and similar financial position but trying to make it fair when they are in different positions with different experiences is difficult - hence the thread.

I would pay DS2s accommodation, leave him the loan to live off and put £3k in to savings for him.
I'd be concerned that he has £7.5k to live off, is spending it all, not learning to budget and not saving anything.
I'm also in Scotland and have did at uni - we pay accommodation and she lives off her loan. She did have a p/t job last summer but not at the moment. When she was home in summer she was fed etc but as she hardly went anywhere she didn't spend much. She is in her final year and appears to be able to eat well and enjoy herself using the loan - £4750 same as your D's.

Should say accommodation has been around £6k each year.

How can one living away and the other at home ever be equal and fair? I missed the Scotland bit. They are very generous when living at home then! Or mean to those living away. It maybe kept the university accommodation for the overseas high fee paying students? It’s a bit of a shame you have saving in the equation. They are also adults. Most students do not expect to save and have a loan because they need it. Not as a savings vehicle. However if they don’t get decent jobs it’s free money I guess.

Guymere, thanks, I agree but they both made their choices. I think it would do DS1 good to move out. I've told him not to worry about it being more expensive and if an opportunity comes along he should feel free to take it ( a school friend he is in touch with goes to the same Uni but lives in the city instead of travelling). it's not that we are well off but we live modestly and don't see any point in oversaving when DC could benefit. We are "older" parents so will be retiring when they finish Uni, DH and I grew up in poverty with no real opportunities or expectations, we just want better for our DC.

I know they are lucky, they know they are lucky. They've never really had grandparents in their lives as 3 died either before they were born or when they were toddlers. My Mum died 2 years ago but wasn't geographically close.

I'm going to try to have a frank conversation with DS2 to come to some agreement. I think saving the money I'm giving to him instead of giving him it is probably the best idea.

And thank you @readsalotgirl63. I'm about 90% sure he isn't spending it all, he isn't a spendthrift but is also generous and kind. He's hoping to get some sort of employment while away at uni but it's not easy at the moment.

My brother and I had very different circumstances and my mum started to tie herself in knots being fair. The only way to be completely fair and equal would be to give each of us exactly nothing. In our circumstances as soon as she started giving, it was unequal. So I told her to relax, we were both getting better than nothing, so in a way she was being more than fair!

Thanks Love51. That is very true!

I guess it's something that I've always tried to be very transparent about with my two as they are only a year apart so any differences are really visible whereas I think with a bigger gap it might be easier? Anyway, neither seem to be the jealous type and whilst MN would consider them materially spoilt, they are not greedy or showy in the slightest.

I just need to do what seems right to me and I was really feeling that DS2 wasn't getting the same as DS1 in reality. DS2 has other advantages such as a better social life and girlfriend etc but that's not his fault and I feel happy that he is happy. I'd hope for the same for DS1 but he is really the only one that can change things for himself. - so I need to chill out, help DS2 to be responsible with his money and leave them to it :)

I think you are being as fair/equitable as possible. We are in a similar position in that we are older parents, live carefully and are comfortable financially (but not loaded). Like you dh and I come from families with little or no spare cash but whose parents were keen for us to do well and were as supportive as they could be.
Dd is an only child and while we didn't want her to struggle as much as we did nor did we want her to think money grew on trees. She chose to go away for uni and we had some very frank conversations about money and costs. To be fair we always have been open with her about money and I think it would be good if you can open the discussion with your ds. For our dd we pointed out that if she stayed at home she could save money - either by not needing the loan or by us putting the cost of accomodation in the bank for her. She chose to leave home. Part of growing up is learning to make financial choices - or life choices which have a financial impact.

I agree totally. We are pretty open in general. They are aware that we will help while we can and that may mean that when we die there is nothing. To be fair I think they should both move out but DS1 just doesn't have the confidence yet. DS2 sorted of wanted to but in the end he only had one offer and that meant he had to move there.

It's done him good in lots of ways. I think that he thinks I will be disapproving of his spending choices but I've tried to say that I know he will have spent a lot initially and that's okay, but he now needs to understand that it's okay to spend but also okay to save and plan. His dyspraxia definitely doesn't help with this.

When he was home and at school he had £50 a month and rarely spent any so I don't think he has been as bad as he thinks he has maybe.

My main worry is that he has loaned money to someone and doesn't want to tell me.

Yes that would be a concern. I can see one of dd's accounts and she knows that - but I don't ask what the PayPal payments are actually for and bite my tongue about deliveroo. With ref to loaning to friends - all you can do is encourage your D's to live within his own means and "neither a borrower nor a lender be" - but sometimes that lesson is only learnt when you've been burnt. Its tricky when your DC is generous and inclined to think the best of people.

we have a bit of progress. He's messaged me about his opticians appointment (which he has actually made!) and whilst talking about potential cost and how much I'd be happy to contribute, i got onto finances. Long story short, he is happy to monitor his costs over the next few weeks to get an idea of how much he is spending and then let me know. I mentioned about maybe putting my contribution into his savings and he was very open to that. So we've parked it until he has a better idea. he says he has bought quite a few "one -off" items over the last couple of weeks so doesn't want to use those figures for his estimate.

This way we don't need to get into what he spent last year, what he has left etc. he seems to think that he is getting plenty but happily agrees that it would be good to get his savings sorted out too.

He confirmed he has plenty of money to buy his glasses and will let me know the cost once he's been.