Clearing: lower grades for overseas students.

[BeginningBridge]

Ds2 will be going to uni this Autumn. I was curious about an option to 'upgrade' under the adjustment scheme.

There is only one other uni he would be interested in - Exeter. He didn't apply before because the grade requirement for the course he wants to do were (realistically) not achievable.

So I had a look at the website. There is a link for UK applicants and another for UK applicants. The revised entry requirements were BBB for UK applicants and BCC for overseas students.

I understand that unis are desperate for the fee income from overseas students but to have such a difference seems very unfair.

The normal entry requirements for this particular course is AAB- AAB.

Is this normal? Or just a reflection of the circumstances in 2020?

The confusing thing about Exeter is there are two campuses (Streatham - the main campus; as well as another one in Penryn which is the far end of Cornwall). The same course can advertise at different grade requirements, depending on which campus you apply to, as Penryn is less popular for to the distant location. So a humanities course at Exeter Strearhsm campus may be A*AA / AAA, but at Penryn it might be ABB. This gives this uni more flexibility in terms of offers than most because if you miss the grades at the main campus, they may offer you a place on the same course at Penryn with lower grades. Are you sure you were comparing like with like OP?

@Capr1

The confusing thing about Exeter is there are two campuses (Streatham - the main campus; as well as another one in Penryn which is the far end of Cornwall). The same course can advertise at different grade requirements, depending on which campus you apply to, as Penryn is less popular for to the distant location. So a humanities course at Exeter Strearhsm campus may be A*AA / AAA, but at Penryn it might be ABB. This gives this uni more flexibility in terms of offers than most because if you miss the grades at the main campus, they may offer you a place on the same course at Penryn with lower grades. Are you sure you were comparing like with like OP?

Yes - definitely comparing different entry requirements for the same course - which is only offered on the St Luke's campus.

It looks as if I was a bit naive to assume that students were offered places on merit alone ...

the government caps the number of domestic students who can be enrolled

No it doesn't. Since 2015 there have only been number caps on specific courses that receive additional per-student funding (e.g. medicine & dentistry). Most courses do not have any official cap on numbers: they're only limited by how many students of sufficient calbire they can recruit and how many they can fit in. Even before 2015 the only limit was on how many home students with A-level grades below ABB could be recruited.

For those courses that do have caps on numbers, there is a corresponding cap on international student numbers. So medicine courses, for example, can only recruit international students up to 7.5% of their total 2018 intake, so if they had 200 places in total in 2018 they're allowed to recruit a maximum of 15 international students a year.

@SirTobyBelch

the government caps the number of domestic students who can be enrolled

No it doesn't. Since 2015 there have only been number caps on specific courses that receive additional per-student funding (e.g. medicine & dentistry). Most courses do not have any official cap on numbers: they're only limited by how many students of sufficient calbire they can recruit and how many they can fit in. Even before 2015 the only limit was on how many home students with A-level grades below ABB could be recruited.

For those courses that do have caps on numbers, there is a corresponding cap on international student numbers. So medicine courses, for example, can only recruit international students up to 7.5% of their total 2018 intake, so if they had 200 places in total in 2018 they're allowed to recruit a maximum of 15 international students a year.

Not now. DfE introduced caps as a response to the Covid 19 crisis - and UUK managed to utterly balls up with that one. Most of us now suspect they're here to stay.

And unlike previous caps they also apply to Home students who self fund...

@SirTobyBelch

the government caps the number of domestic students who can be enrolled

No it doesn't. Since 2015 there have only been number caps on specific courses that receive additional per-student funding (e.g. medicine & dentistry). Most courses do not have any official cap on numbers: they're only limited by how many students of sufficient calbire they can recruit and how many they can fit in. Even before 2015 the only limit was on how many home students with A-level grades below ABB could be recruited.

For those courses that do have caps on numbers, there is a corresponding cap on international student numbers. So medicine courses, for example, can only recruit international students up to 7.5% of their total 2018 intake, so if they had 200 places in total in 2018 they're allowed to recruit a maximum of 15 international students a year.

That's normally true but not this year, when student number controls have been put in place.

It looks as if I was a bit naive to assume that students were offered places on merit alone ...

Preferential treatment for students who pay higher fees is not new.

Students from England are more likely to receive an offer in a NI or Scottish university as they pay higher fees. Likewise, a student from abroad who pays international fees was always far more likely to receive an offer than a student who pays EU fees.

Glad I am not the only person who is uneasy about this approach - it does seem very unfair to effectively discriminate against UK applicants.

There is no discrimination because the number of OS students has absolutely no impact on the the number of places available for home students. There are no quotas. There is a temporary cap this year for home students only which is +5% of projected intake.

Well it’s based on merit but uni is also a business. Like private school entry.

@beginningbridge

Places are being allocated on merit- the number of international students admitted has absolutely nothing to do with how many U.K. student get places.

Each uni and each course will have a set number of places for domestic students and a set number for overseas. Clearly, if you have 1000 applicants for 100 UK places and 300 applicants for 100 international places, entry requirements for U.K. applicants will be higher purely due to the higher competition.

“There are no quotas” yet “a university will have a set number of places for domestic students and a set number for overseas.“ This is a quota. If this results in less competition for the overseas places and grades are lowered it sets up a false market that domestic applicants are not aware of. However the overseas fees are welcome. So does everyone gain?

They do not have a set number of places for home or OS students. They can, normally, take as many as they want. This year, and only this year, there is a cap on how students. There is no cap on OS students.

I understand that unis are desperate for the fee income from overseas students but to have such a difference seems very unfair

hmmmm, is your DS doing exams and hoping to study in a language which is not his native language? In a system in which he hasn't been educated, raised & acculturated?

But you do know, don't you, that overseas students subsidise UK students by up to 50% of the tuition fee for UK students?

And that any numbers cap does not include overseas students.

I do get a bit sick of the potential or covert xenophobia regarding overseas students. The ones I teach are prepared, diligent, enthusiastic - would that UK students were all so motivated ...

“There are no quotas” yet “a university will have a set number of places for domestic students and a set number for overseas.“ This is a quota.

Ummm, no. It will be about how many students we can accommodate on a degree programme in relation to physical space, teaching capacity, our ambitions for a fairly low student to staff ratio, other kinds of resources (libraries, labs, halls of residence etc).

And let me say again - as other academics have already stated on this thread (and umpteen others):
the number of UK students is a separate figure from the number of OS students

OS students subsidise your DCs degrees.

In fact, if you want an idea of how much a degree actually costs to teach (as opposed to the government-capped tuition fee) look at the OS tuition fee. THat's generally around what a degree actually costs.

I do get tired of the mistruths and downright xenophobia of some of these misconceptions of university funding & student numbers.

But surely, the university is not saying, You need to get CCC in A levels, it is saying, You only need to get the equivalent of our CCC in your own, familiar, in your native language, local exam system. Whereas a home student won't be accepted unless they have our equivalent of x% up on your requirements in your system? Not at all suggesting that it isn't a bold step to take, but choosing to apply for a university place in a foreign country in a language not your mother tongue is personal. There may well be countries where a certain degree programme is not available and so, if you want to study it, you have to move away, but is there any country that insists on its citizens applying to foreign universities, regardless of local provision?

Bottom line, though, if the course is teachable to people with CCC equivalents who will have to be coping with working in a foreign language to boot, then in the absence of an oversupply of home students with the stated minimum grades for the 'home' places, presumably those home applicants only offering the 'Overseas' minimum grades would / should not be turned down for that reason alone?

More international the better IMO - we need to see the world outside the uk more than ever!

but is there any country that insists on its citizens applying to foreign universities, regardless of local provision?

I don't actually understand Marching frogs. However I can think of some clear examples for students needing to attend universities abroad.

1. Non Arab student from the Gulf. Bright student, educaiton in good international schools. His professional parents had worked in the Gulf all their lives, and been born there. but he had no right of residence at all once he turned 18. Also no right of residence in his parents home countries as he was not born there. Indeed when he left the UK for post grad in the US he had two days where he had no residency anywhere. I assume a series of long flights and a night sleeping on the floor of a transit lounge.

And indeed someone with a similar history who grew up in Thailand, but who now needs a visa to return as a tourist even though her parents are still there. .

1. A Chinese Malaysian. There are very clear racial quotas for higher education places in Malaysia, and a huge emphasis on education within the Chinese community. As a result many go to the UK, even though for Malaysians it can be very expensive. Its known as "family scholarships" where the extended family, or clan, club together to pay, and then the scholar repays over a working lifetime.

I am sure there are other examples. We are very lucky to have easy access to good quality higher education.

Yes, I was thinking of CHinese Malaysians. Although most of them go to Australia or the US.

Also, when I was chair of a national organisation for my discipline, I'd go to international gatherings of chairs of similar organisations each year, and I remember once chatting to an Indian professor, who quoted some extraordinary stats about Indian education - India has one of the world's largest middle-classes & if you are middle or upper class in India, the education is excellent, but there are about 1 million young people in India who are qualified to attend university, but for whom there are no university places.

I found that amazing - most of them go to the USA as the racism there is (or was) less damaging than Australia or the UK. But a considerable proportion come to the UK - I wish we could take more from India, actually. In my field they are really well-educated & have read more than my UK educated undergrads (theres Gove's reforms for you!), and their work ethic is admirable - yet they are pleasant & fun loving as well - very kind & sociable, in the most part - certainly the Indian students I've taught or supervised in PhDs.

So there are a LOT of reasons why young people from elsewhere would want to come to the UK for their university education. I think it's something to be really proud of that we have an HE sector which is seen as one of the best, and one of the most trustworthy in terms of qualifications, in the world.

It's got very little to do with the money that they contribute: I enjoy teaching international student, and it's good for UK undergrads to be exposed to different ideas and cultures at close quarters. Well, certainly where I teach, which is a pretty white elite institution, where some students display deplorably racist attitudes.

More international the better IMO - we need to see the world outside the uk more than ever!

Absolutely @Newgirls

Catandthefiddle another problem is alcohol and the idea that University is for the experience rather than the education.

This is not the case if your parents are scraping together every penny they have to afford to send you. And the knowledge that if you are going to get a job in competitive job markets in India or South East Asia, or to get an employer to sponsor you to stay in the UK, you need to do well.

We know one girl who walked out of Birmingham. Her British flatmates were filthy, and seemed uninterested in study. DS really enjoyed being in a mixed group in London. About a third on his course were from the UK, with others from Asia, Eastern Europe and Australia. They got on well, including colonising a room in the library and a regular pup outing after their weekly group tutorial. It is hard to see what the drawbacks are.

International students a good thing for the student mix at UK universities? Of course.
Competition between international and home students for places? Not usually for non-EU students.

However, if a university accepts significantly lower grades for internationally students (other than contextual offers) then they will inevitably end up with a wider distribution of academic abilities. At best that means more support will be required for weaker students to catch-up. At worse the degree material will be dumbed down, small group teaching will be affected and therefore the course less appealing for the standard offer students.

Much better IMO to increase the number of foundation year places although that could still result in overcrowding of facilities.
Or alternatively offer a few weeks extra teaching prior to normal terms for degree preparation (more work of course for the academics).