Advice on doing a bio sciences phd?

[RobinHobb]

Looking for some advice from anyone who has done a PhD in sciences, biological sciences specifically.

I work in a completely different (better paying field) for the last 10 years or so. I have an undergrad in mathematics from a top university, but always interested in biology - never got the chance to study it and switch undergrad.

After 10 years in finance, on mat leave 1+2, I did an undergrad in biology from OU. Now finishing a MSc in London in cell biology/molecular pathology next year (doing it part time around work and kids). I absolutely love it. I find it so interesting. Really want to do a (full time) PhD.

The question is: how hard is it to get a funded PhD in bio sciences? I'm looking at a few places close to me, and don't want a long commute so I feel options are limited.

Any advice for me? I have an average of 85% in my MSc so far and completing my research project early next year. Insights, opinions and tips are all very welcome. Thank you!

It’s pretty competitive to get funding. Even more so now after brexit and Covid.
Why do you want to do a phd? Do you have a particular area you’re interested in?
I did mine nearly 20 years ago and loved it but it was hard and I had to be a real slave to the experiments. Do you have out of hours childcare?

@CuckooCuckooClock
Thank you
Yes I do have a specific interest which is in immunotherapy for cancer (current degree is cancer focussed). Wraparound childcare is organised and factored into thinking/planning/costs.
Why do I want to do it? Just find it fascinating.
Would like to work in research after this. Absolutely no other reason given I have a career already....

Apply then.
Get as much research experience as you can.
Will you publish your MSc work? That will make you more competitive.

Yes had research placement lined up for this summer (May to sept), full time childcare organised and then Covid happened.

We let go of the nanny, and now I'm home this summer (kids doing my head in) and thinking/trying to get my grand and probably unrealistic plans back on track. I guess I want some hope it's possible! Getting a bit ground down with two kids under 5 :-)

Will apply and see! Hoping to get tips and advice. Plan to start in October when projects are released/announced

Don't think any msc work will be published but have to wait and see for next year

Doing the PhD is easy enough...it's the job market after. Unless you have publications and apply for successful grants it's not great. Post doc to post doc jobs don't offer much career progression and stability. Most are for the period of the grant. Unless you go into lecturing or have a job in pharma. With your maths background have you thought about going into bioinformatics? There are lots of groups looking at this within cancer. Salaries are usually much higher and expertise is in demand.

@Butterfly44
Thank you for replying. It seems presumptuous to be thinking of jobs post doc when I haven't even started yet but it is ultimately means to an end: I'dlike to ultimately work in pharma. Post doc jobs seems very difficult and the academia path is probably not for me.

Over this summer with lockdown time I looked at programming in R, and packages in bioconductor etc. I know this is in higher demand but honestly I can "do it" because I have a programming and math background but have very little interest. I found myself drifting back towards reading cell biology text books and immunology papers "for fun" (my definition of fun is pretty dire with two children up my wazoo 100% of the time). I already have a career in finance which pays well but I'm not interested in so I don't think I want to do bioinformatics...

Hopeful bump...

I don’t think it’s presumptuous to think about the job market post-PhD before applying. I agree with other posters that academia is a long hard slog. I went straight into pharma after my PhD, which I love; I’m not in laboratory science though.

There is more demand for people with strong bioinformatics skills than there is for people with laboratory biology skills so I would see if you can do a project which allows you to demonstrate that you know and understand how to analyse your data as well as generate it, this will give you more options jobs-wise.

@erinaceus
Thank you for reading and replying
I am pretty sure I don't want to work in academia, it sounds quite a slog and unrewarding.
I do want to work in a wet lab though; but the ideal combination would have some data analysis/dry lab as well.

But I'm approaching this in probably the "wrong" way. I'm not looking for projects based entirely by topic or interest, proximity to where I live is a major factor. There are a few great options close to me and I'd like to work there (unless projects offered are completely of no interest to me) - there are large institutions/labs and well rated so I have no idea how competitive it will be to get a studentship in one of these. I can also commute to London but it's pretty long - I do it now for my MSc, and it's not feasible in a full time way. So if I get a project with a bioinformatics element and it's close to me I'll go for it!

If you don't mind my asking, you said you work in pharma post phd but not in a lab. What sort of things should I be thinking about for a lab job in pharma post doc?

I’m in the data analysis side, I left the wet lab after undergrad.

I don’t know what skills are in demand for the lab side, perhaps do a search for oncology scientist jobs on the major pharma companies’ career website? That should give you an idea which techniques/technologies are sought after. Another option is to see if your lecturers know anyone who moved to pharma who could have a chat with you about jobs and what it’s like to work in industry in the lab.

One option is to see if you can find a PhD CASE award, which is a part-industry-funded PhD involving a collaborative element, they can be a mixed bag but they can be a way to build connections with industry.

Thank you @erinaceus

This is all very useful - much appreciated
I think one of my MSc mentors is ex pharma so will talk to him.

I have looked into the PhD case student ships and that's definitely my "ideal" way of starting the PhD but I understand they are very competitive. I'll definitely be applying though.

I've had a look through some of the big Pharma career sites ages ago but think I need to do it again.
Anyway thank you for the advice!

Hi, I'm science faculty at an RG uni in London and my husband also did a PhD in Biosciences.

If sounds like you have great grades and great skills, so you could well be in demand as a PhD student.

there are 3 major ways to get PhD funding in the UK

1. student led - the student approaches a supervisor, develops a project which is their passion and then applies for funding. Different departments can have different pots of internal funding and it is all a bit haphazard but with a supportive supervisor, it can work. Funding deadlines are typically December / January so contact potential supervisors in Sept / Oct to start discussing a possible project.

2. Project led - the supervisor has funding from a grant / CASE studentship etc and advertises the position, like a job advert. Look on jobs.ac.uk and ask your current supervisor if there are email lists relevant to your field. These can be advertised at any time of year so keep an eye out. They may be less flexible in terms of allowing you to work part time, but it is worth asking.

3. Big doctoral training programs (e.g. Wellcome Trust Neuroscience PhDs, and I'm sure there are similar in other areas) where you apply to the program and then get to chose your supervisor later. These are prestigious & supportive so are definitely worth going for.

Finding a PhD position is a bit like matchmaking - the position needs to work for both the student and the supervisor, and both people need to get on with each other. When you are putting together a project with a supervisor or applying for a position, do talk to other people in the lab (or in your current lab) and get the gossip on the group and department you are joining - are they supportive of part time working etc. Some biosciences labs expect ridiculous working hours which probably isn't what you want.

Finally, good luck and do go for it - apply to several places and pick the one you really want to do carefully and it can all work out.

Have you spoken to any of your MSc tutors who are research active in your area of interest? May be good to try and get a pharma PhD funding body also, I had mine with Smith and Nephew and worked there for a while too so got good contacts
It's highly competitive so I'd try and get in off the back if someone you know already, at least you know if they're a decent supervisor!

@parietal
Thank you so much, this is very helpful. I've been doing my research on the net, and this is very useful to consolidate my thinking on the approaches to applying. It'll be option 2 or 3 for me: there are many projects out there in my chosen field (cancer research). I'll probably limit my applications to a handful of places, and hope for interviews to be able to determine the match as it were. Very much like a job interview as I keep telling myself, just hoping I'm considered an eligible candidate -I'm a mature student, career changing after 10 + years in investment banking of all things!

Not sure what will happen if I don't even get invited for interview - but not sure what else I can be doing more than I am.

Thank you for the help and advice - it's much appreciated.

@custardbear

Have you spoken to any of your MSc tutors who are research active in your area of interest? May be good to try and get a pharma PhD funding body also, I had mine with Smith and Nephew and worked there for a while too so got good contacts It's highly competitive so I'd try and get in off the back if someone you know already, at least you know if they're a decent supervisor!

Well, yes and no. I had lined up a research placement for May- September - unpaid work experience basically. But Covid scuppered that. It was my area of interest and I was hoping to during or after the placement speak to the PI in person about projects. I've had a look at findaphd etc and at the relevant websites of the institutions I want to apply at and applications don't start till October so will wait till then, and try to talk to people beforehand. Part of the problem is that everything has moved to online now and I won't physically be completing my degree or going in and seeing lecturers and I find it quite hard to approach a PI randomly in say, tumour biology, and ask them to help me, without even having seen or spoken in person beforehand. I think I'm being naive here, they must be used to this all the time. So will add this to my list of things I can do. And also ask for any advice re applying to pharma.

Thank you!

I have a PhD in biosciences, I’m a university lecturer and my husband is a postdoc. I would say it largely depends on why you are doing it. If it’s because you love the research then great go for it- but be prepared for career instability if you decide to try and stay in academia. However your finance background means you always have something much more secure and well paid to fall back on- which most of us don’t. I agree with a previous post about bioinformatics. There’s lots of research projects that combine a wet lab approach with bioinformatics- and often bioinformatics will be outsourced to another group who specialise in it. If you have the wet lab background and can do the associated bioinformatics you would be a very attractive PhD candidate. To be honest even having the maths and the bioscience would be appealing for a number of projects.

@Zippy1510
Thank you very much! This is really useful for me because I hadn't even thought of leveraging the mathematics.

I suppose I had thought of bioinformatics as writing all the code to analyse the data, and I'm not interested in writing code. I used to be a fairly proficient programmer in C++, many years ago, and don't want to do it again really.

But to the extent that an ability to use programming packages and tools to analyse data is needed, that's absolutely fine - love that kind of stuff because I feel it really adds value, especially when you understand what you're doing to the information if you see what I mean. Sorry that's not very articulate - just thinking aloud.

On the maths; I love statistics (it's sad). I only went into finance for the money quite frankly, but biostatistics was always interesting to me. I'm going to go get me some textbooks from amazon to refresh my stats. Never thought too much about it - I kind of take it for granted.

In terms of writing my statement of purpose or cover letter etc I will try and also focus on the mathematics/stats background. I have used it in finance so I think i can emphasise it as a transferable skill I have (compared to all the 20 somethings I'll be competing with!) this is very useful advice coming from someone in the field. Thanks very much!

If you’re interested in biostatistics, and have strong enough statistical skills you could explore that route in terms of PhD instead of either bioinformatics or laboratory science, because there is so much demand for skilled statisticians with an interest in biology. I am biased because that’s what I do, I don’t like the lab and I’m not mad keen on bioinformatics either although I’ve done it a bit.

If you’re keen to spend three years in the lab doing a lab-based PhD then there’s nothing to stop you from doing that but career-wise if you’ve got MSc-level statistics already and an interest in biology you might be able to move as you are into biostatistics roles in pharma; beyond that a biostatistics PhD makes you very employable (not an easy route however).

Hi @erinaceus
I've been thinking about bio stats: I have strong enough background in stats but a BSc in maths, not MSc level stats so I think that's just not enough. I will have a MSc (soon I hope) in molecular pathology (Plus various irrelevant qualifications in finance). I can understand that biostatistics is in higher demand than wet lab experience and seems a more sensible strategy, but I'd rather work in a lab I think. But will see what projects are available locally to me: that's basically my strategy....

I would suggest looking for Research Assistant positions which offer the opportunity to do a PhD. I did that, it did mean it took me 4 years to get my PhD but many of the students seemed to have extensions anyway and you have a salary, plus don't forget the pension contributions! I had a Master's when I started it which meant I wasn't at the bottom of the scale and when I did my post-doc, as I was already on the university salary scales, I went in higher than those who had done a PhD with a studentship.

@mushroom3

I would suggest looking for Research Assistant positions which offer the opportunity to do a PhD. I did that, it did mean it took me 4 years to get my PhD but many of the students seemed to have extensions anyway and you have a salary, plus don't forget the pension contributions! I had a Master's when I started it which meant I wasn't at the bottom of the scale and when I did my post-doc, as I was already on the university salary scales, I went in higher than those who had done a PhD with a studentship.

Ah! This is interesting - I had no idea it was possible to do this. So there are RA jobs that allow you to do a PhD at the same time, a bit like doing articles/apprenticeship at the same time as getting a degree? It's interesting that in all my research on doing a PhD so far this hasn't come up as an option at all. Helps to talk to people who are in the field! Thank you @mushroom3

Yes, @RobinHobb, it is a bit like a degree apprenticeship at post-grad level!

I got my PhD as an RA. I'm still an RA. I like being an RA. For me it hasn't been unpleasant job at all. I find academia a great place to work. Look for jobs here.

If you love stats then people in medicine, nursing or public health will bite your hands off to get involved in their project. Don't just think oncology, you could end up using the skills across multiple sub-areas.

I did a biochem PhD followed by a post doc and now I'm on pharma. My previous job was at a company called immunocore and they are researching immunotherapies for cancer. Their sister company adaptimmune is doing similar. A lot of people at these companies don't have PhDs and sometimes they offer collaborative PhDs to employees. Might be something to look into if you aren't focussed on academia