Oxbridge 2020 (8th thread)

[DadDadDad]

A thread to continue discussing entry to Oxbridge in October 2020 (less than nine months away ). All welcome, although this obviously will be of most interest to those with DS or DD holding an offer, and wanting to find a bit of support.

All too soon, 13 August will come over the horizon. Until then, ask questions... share experiences... discuss news and stats... write a poem... (we did briefly have some poetry on a previous thread).

With huge thanks to @HugoSpritz and predecessors for previous threads.

Update on us - school has decided it can and will register as a STEP exam centre so DS will be able to take the three STEP exams at his own school!! We have to pay, but better to pay for him to take it there than in a strange place by himself.

He still doesn't know which university will suit him best, but at least now he knows he can take STEP with the minimum of fuss.

It's a double smile day!

@GinWorksForMe - excellent news. One less thing to worry about.

@GinWorksForMe that's fantastic! I'm so please the school decided to do that

Really good news GinWorksForMe. I was really surprised that the school had told your DS he had to go elsewhere - it would be a proper hassle in the middle of A levels. One less thing to worry about :)

GinWorksForMe that's great news that the school will facilitate him taking STEP.

Hi @terfterf and @gizmo !

My colleagues and I, working in schools, get to talk a bit to Cambridge Admissions Tutors. They are painfully aware of geographical pockets which produce, proportionately, very few applicants. For example, Northern Ireland has been highlighted as a particular challenge in recent years.

Yet if you ask my daughter about her experience in Cambridge these past two and a half academic years, she will be quite adamant: she has lots of friends and acquaintances from all over the UK. But nearly all are ‘middle class’ or ‘ posh’ and most from selective or private schools. Her experience is that the challenge is of ‘class’, in particular socio-economic class. To that I would add ‘educational class’. Nearly everyone she knows there either has ’professional graduate’ parents, or ‘wealthy‘ parents, or has at least one parent who read Physics at Imperial or Maths at Warwick or Economics at the LSE or English Lit at an Oxbridge College or some such. (Yes, my partner and I both fit into these stereotypes!)

Dr Andrew Spencer has been Admissions Tutor at Corpus Christi, Christ’s and Murray Edwards colleges and is now Senior Tutor at Caius. He is quite clear: “Cambridge is very diverse in lots of ways, but it’s not terribly diverse in socio-economic terms.”
“My job as an admissions tutor and the job of my colleagues as fellows and staff is to make anyone who has got the potential to do well at Cambridge feel that Cambridge is a place for them. … I think that that’s something we all need to still do more work on.”
For many applicants from underrepresented groups, an especially painful challenge today is the combined pressure of Tuition Fees and Living Costs. Too many are put off from applying to a Uni away from home; this way they save on living costs. Some are put off altogether. It remains to be seen what difference the now centralised Cambridge Bursary Scheme makes.

Source for quotes (2017): www.varsity.co.uk/features/13616

Well, the thing is that an academic home is more likely to produce an academic child, and an academic person is what Oxbridge are looking for. It has much less to do with actually money - ds is living proof! And all those kids getting in from inner-London schools. If you drill down and look at their backgrounds they'll have very supportive parents and most probably be from a culture which really values education.

The problem is the blah nature of education in schools making up for a lack of culture, for want of a better word, at home. There is just no aspiration in so many places. Many teachers have not been to terribly esteemed institutions themselves and I have shuddered over the years at the poor quality of personnel and the dumbed-down offerings on the curriculum. That sounds snobby and harsh, but as an example dd's GCSE Music teacher could not read music . So that's an irritation for those pupils who learn out of school, but for the schmucks stuck with school only provision it's a disgrace.

Could not agree more with Irma. Even in our wealthy bit of Cambridgeshire, the 11-16 school my kids went to is really not encouraging anyone to aim for the "higher" things like Oxbridge. There is nothing known about IB or alternative routes or BTecs or degree apprenticeships. Nothing except standard sixth form A levels, or vocational courses. Parents believe that school has all the answers, that teachers are trained in careers help, and leave it up to them. The huge high-achieving state sixth form lets the kids get on with it but will help them loads if they ask. But many don't ask because they don't think they're worthy, or feel like they're attention-seeking, and are not getting the help from parents either, and just trundle along the path thinking they're just not clever/posh/rich enough for the "good places".

Lots of my friends have very little interest in their children's education, other than parents evenings and reports, and are amazed that I know what texts they're studying or when their exams are (exam board websites!) It's not that they're unintelligent or bad parents but simply don't see their kids as "the type" to either go to uni or to apply for the really competitive stuff. They didn't do it and did ok in life so why not the same for their children?

Multiply my friends by 10/100/1000% for those living in a more economically deprived area, with fewer school choices and dreadful public transport, and you get the attitude of a nation towards education. And it's a vicious circle of decades of government underinvestment, poor teaching salaries and complacency about being "Great" Britain. It makes me sad and angry and I feel powerless to do anything.

Sorry, needed a rant

[NB both DH and I dropped out of uni/poly after one year as it wasn't what we wanted. So, no degrees. And we're not particularly wealthy. And don't work in education/STEM/IT ]

Spot on Irma and terf.
Universities can’t be held accountable for the mediocrity that exists in state schools in some areas of the country.

Interesting socio-economic discussion.

I am a carer, my husband is a police officer. We are not on the bread line but, with three children and a mortgage and the costs of running a house and a car and feeding/clothing us all, we do not have much of a disposable income to be honest.

My three children, all of who show signs of being academically able for top universities, and who are well supported educationally at home I hope, will be entitled to the minimum maintenance loan as our combined income is a little over the threshold figure. We estimate our children will need a £250 per month minimum top up from us, each, for three or four years to get them through university. My first two are only one year apart in age so that means having to find £500 per month from next year for at least two or three years. I haven't yet found any hardship funds/bursaries for which our children might be eligible, as they are not eligible for free school meals etc. I agree that those funds should be available to the most needy, of course.

The obvious answer is for the children to continue to earn their spending money themselves, with part time jobs, through their university study. They can do that pretty much anywhere they end up. So not being really 'allowed' to do this at Oxbridge is a HUGE deterrent to going there, as is the college DS has an offer from asking for a £1500 deposit against living costs at the start of the first term in advance. That will be basically the whole of his maintenance loan for that term, meaning that we also need to find the whole of his rent in advance for the first term, if it's due in advance (I haven't seen anything about that, yet - perhaps it's payable in arrears, I don't know).

We are looking at re-mortgaging so that we can feel secure in being able to provide the top-up monthly amounts for the children...which means not only are they taking on huge debt, but we are adding to our debt too.

There's no way we can be the only ones who find the whole thing daunting financially, however much we support the idea of Oxbridge widening access and our own children putting themselves out of their comfort zones in order to have extraordinary opportunities in their lives.

Happy weekend everyone .

I think the £1500 deposit would probably cover the rent for that term? If household income is less than £42600 then you can apply or a Cambridge bursary (sliding scale - less than £2500 gets the full £3500 bursary). However a ceiling of £42 600 is not that high really when thinking about duel income households.

On the plus side, fully catered accommodation at Oxford is usually between £5k - £5.5k p.a. Catered at Durham is around £7.8k p.a., self catered in Southampton is at least £6k p.a. and catered in Bristol is at least £7.5k. Those 8 week terms at Oxford & Cambridge will save them a fortune If they get there.

@GinWorksForMe what's the £1500 for? My youngest is at Cambridge and, from my experience the rent is lower than elsewhere because of the short terms, but I know it varies by college.
Short terms and not paying in holidays really helps.

The £1500 is an advance deposit against college costs I think, food, electricity etc. Looks like they get a bill for all that stuff at the end of each term but that first £1500 essentially pays for their last term in advance. Thanks can't quite work it out.

Anyone else worried about coronavirus and the potential impact on the DC's education? I am. I can't imagine how A-level students will manage if schools are closed, especially if there is a lot still to cover in their syllabi (as is the case for my DS).

@PantTwizzler TBH not really. Both DS1 and DD (GCSEs) have practically finished the syllabuses. If schools shut they'll work from home and everyone will be in the same boat.

Like sandybayley I'm not concerned about missed teaching time; they've covered most of the material and DS has access to textbooks to self-teach the remainder if necessary. He does need to be able to sit the exams though.

I've reminded DD to keep her books at home, not in her locker, just in case.

DS hasn't finished chemistry or physics yet, but what worries me more is that they've not finished the required practicals or passed the compitencies yet. And although I think he could self teach the rest of the course that wouldn't work for the practicals.

All of DD's subjects will be covering new material until Easter. DBIL says he may de-camp from London to the country for a while. I've offered him a room with us on condition that he's prepared to tutor DD!

Umm TerfTerf, I don't know off-hand which exam boards my A-level DD and GCSE DS are doing and don't know the modules.
Our older child just got on with it. Though I think we will have to be more hands-on with son, who is struggling.
But I worry if parents are too 'helpful' then children have a steep learning curve at uni. I guess there's an optimal balance somewhere, depending on the child.

Checked with ds in case of any quarantining - he has finished Physics practical and Geography coursework handed in. He thinks he could self teach what is left if it came to it.

DS just got his feedback from Oxford - in his words "I was good but not good enough, and not worth applying again" so finally we have closure on that!
Thought some might be interested (for spreadsheets or stats records!) in these figures:

DD has finally heard from Durham. An offer! Same grades as Cambridge but no stipulation for the A* . Now in quandary about what to do for insurance...