Biochem degree with grades of B, C & D??

[ChesterBelloc]

Long story... DD originally wanted to be a neurosurgeon. She is dyslexic, and was never going to get 3 As at A-level - particularly as she insisted on doing Biology, Chemistry and Physics (rather than something like Geography as a 3rd, in which she'd have stood a decent chance of an A grade ..)

Anyhow, post-Mocks she's looking at predicted grades of B in Biology (possibly an A but unlikely), B/C in Chemistry and C/D in Physics. Which is gutting for her, as she works tremendously hard, but is slowly and painfully discovering that hard work is not necessarily enough. She now knows that Medicine is not an option, and is talking about Bioscience/Biochemistry degrees, with a view to a career in research. She's a bit of an Aspie, I reckon, and I think lab-work would suit her.

My real question, I suppose, is if a university degree is an appropriate next step for her, given her grades, and the fact that she doesn't really have a naturally 'academic' type of intelligence - and her dyslexia on top makes all reading/written tasks more difficult for her - surely that's what university is all about?!

She's very motivated, practical, hard-working, lots of self-discipline and drive... I don't really want her to struggle on for another three years in a very academic environment that's not best suited to her strengths.

Thoughts/advice? TIA.

Yup that's what we had to do with her A-levels. I begged strongly suggested to her that she choose Geography rather than Physics (she could have got an A in the former, will be lucky to get a C in the latter, and hates it) - she wouldn't hear of it. It's very frustrating to watch, as a parent, but it seems she'll have to learn things the hard way!

(That was in reply to Mood, sorry)

I would say not pharmacy- a lot of it is patient facing and increasingly so. There is also negotiating with medics (telling them they are wrong)
Its a 4 year course and the grades for the better universities are still ABB or similar. The not so good ones offer lower grades but they seem to have a high drop out rate. You would also need to ask the Uni (or the GPhC) about the pass rate for the qualifying exam at the end of the the Pre-registration year. (ie year 5). The Unite Union published them by Uni to the Guild of Healthcare Pharmacists members at one stage
DC2 is dyslexic, diagnosed in year 13, and has a degree and Masters in History. He had great support from his University Learning support throughout. However, everything took him a long time because of his associated slow processing speed. We supported him financially because we did not want him to get a job in term time as he needed the study time.
One of girls in the year above was also dyslexic and had huge support from the school to get into medical school - she took all of the extra time in exams and there were some sort of allowances made for practicals.

ChesterBelloc. She can do a post graduate medical degree as long as she gets a 2:1 or above in her first degree. A levels only have a meaning to get onto the first course which has to be science related. Its a long road but if she really wants to do medicine she will do it. Imo it is better to do Medicine when you are a bit older.

Not all medicine courses require graduates' first degree to be in a science. And many do have minimum A-level (and GCSE) requirements for graduates.

In any case, this isn't really relevant as the OP is saying she doesn't think medicine is an appropriate choice for her daughter, and from what she's said I'd be inclined to agree. Students who wouldn't enjoy patient contact should really be looking for alternatives where they can achieve something worthwhile without committing themselves to something they would really dislike (and probably wouldn't be good at).

Reading the thread again it brought back memories. My son was uncommunicative because he thought he was destined to be a professional cricketer but did not make final selection so his world collapsed. His girlfriend was German, whom he met at school when she came to perfect her already perfect English. He surrendered his place at uni and went to Germany for a gap year and also learnt the language. We tried to have the conversation about what do you want to do and got nowhere. So we left him alone and said you either get a good degree in whatever from a reputable university or you get a job and your allowance is stopping. Off his own bat he applied to Southampton Uni and it was whilst he was there he was mentored by someone who motivated him. He then found out what he had to do and the rest is history. So l would say A levels turned the key to a degree course, it is not the b all and end all. For what its worth he said if he had know what he wanted to do he would have done a Physiology degree rather than Biology. My husbund is in Medicine and you cannot believe some of the comments we received because his A's levels were not great and rugby and cricket was his thing. Especially from friends whose children had got straight A's and not even had an offer or called for interview after applying for Medicine and they were in some cases doctors and dentists ( including my husbands partner - Awkward! ). Other things that helped was he worked with Mind ( teenagers ) both here and equivalent in Germany, spoke a language, had experience in living on his own in other countries. What else you can offer is as important and it must come from them. There are other ways to do Medicine but you have to be determined if you are not you will not cope with the job.

I do think, reading this, that she’s not, at the moment, mature enough to know what she can do and shouldn’t do. Some of the traits you describe here are not what I think would make a good doctor. People who are brain surgeons are doctors first and foremost and she needs to be realistic. Her qualifications will be a barrier. That’s why lots of posters are coming up with great ideas but your DD seems closed to them.

Can the school not help? Has she been brainwashed into thinking STEM is the only way forward? She might like studying but her predicted grades are saying she might struggle in some areas of study.

Someone I know had a DD who wanted to be a vet. For reasons best known to herself, she did the wrong A levels. Stubbornly wouldn’t take advice and her parents thought they knew better too. She had to do a Foundation year despite A*AA. There is no disgrace in this though . It’s just a case of accepting you need a bit longer. It’s better to do this than get rejected from everywhere.

However I think someone outside the family needs to speak to her because she may find her choices have now limited what she can do and she needs to look at alternatives. She seems rather rude about apprenticeships for example but she’s not any better than DC that embark on them and many of them will have great A levels.

Sorry SirTobyBelch l didn't see the bit about not possibly enjoying patient contact. l agree it is unlikely she would enjoy this choice of career.

I agree with all your points, bubbles, but she is equally closed to the opinions of people outside of her parents.

Re help/perspective from school, this has been tricky. They want to promote a growth mindset, in which pupils don't automatically limit themselves, and have high aspirations, etc etc - all good things, but my view has always been that hard work, though of infinite value IN ITSELF, is not necessarily enough to get 3xAs in all-Science A-Levels, when her GCSEs were a mix of 7s, 6s and 5s (3 of each. A 5 in Maths, which she has re-sat twice now to no avail).

Her Science teachers' approach was to kinda kick the can down the road; at the end of her GCSEs (when she said she was definitely doing Medicine at Uni) they said ok, we'll see how you go in your end-of-year exams. Then in Y13 they said ok, we'll wait and see how you do in your Mocks... I suppose this was their only option, really - to let Reality take its course, and leave her to see her results for herself, as she was simply not listening to any hints (subtle & not so subtle) that perhaps she might not make the grades in the end...

It is very frustrating.

Also agree about poor attitude towards apprenticeships - though I think this is mainly because she wants to study rather than work-and-study.

I think her Aspergers (not diagnosed but plenty of it on both sides of the family) may be playing a big part in how tunnel-vision and blinkered and black-and-white she is, and how hard it is for her to be flexible in her thinking, and adjust to new/different realities. And very little can be done about that, as far as I can see

Sorry, I am actually the OP! I seem to have managed to log in under different user names on my phone versus iPad, so appear differently depending on what device I'm using Really need to sort that out...

If you declare your dyslexia (will need a proper diagnosis) there is lots of help, like tech for reading and writing, available at university.

I agree. DD has CFS and the support she has had from disability services at her university (Newcastle) has been excellent.

DD is doing biomed and I can concur that it is not an easy option. The course is full of disappointed students who failed to get into medicine. The students often have to work together in lab practicals so this would need to be taken into account.

Also, graduate entry medicine still requires the UCAT test to be taken.

I've managed to sort my username(s) out

She has an official diagnosis for her dyslexia and receives 25% extra time in exams, which she generally declines to use (or at least to use properly).

No formal diagnosis of Aspergers.

That's very interesting about the UCAT for graduate entry; I did not know that. I had a brief look at some sample questions myself, and they seemed extremely tricky!

I think they have to treat all applicants the same. It doesn’t matter what pre qualifications you have.

I feel that you are in a very difficult situation because at the end of this you might have a very demoralised DD. Of course aspiration is great and I’m often on these threads saying it’s vital - but of course there has to be a dose of realism. Obviously it’s this bit that’s missing! She might be better off taking the A levels and applying post results. At least that way she has another year to mature and see where her results will take her. I cannot think what else to suggest! Good luck though.

A back up option
www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/medical-associate-professions/roles-medical-associate-professions/physicians-assistant-anaesthesia/training-development-and-registration

A couple of additional points re aptitude tests for graduates studying medicine...

For dedicated graduate-entry programmes (usually 4 years), some will require GAMSAT (St George's, Nottingham, Swansea, ScotGEM) rather than UCAT.

For standard-entry programmes that accept graduates, there may be a requirement for GAMSAT instead of UCAT (e.g. Exeter, Plymouth, Liverpool) or in addition to UCAT if minimum A-level requirements aren't met (e.g. Keele). Medical schools that require BMAT for school-leaver applicants will usually require it for graduate applicants, too.

Regarding physician associate as an alternative role to doctor, it does require just as much - if not more - patient contact and isn't a realistic alternative if the student isn't comfortable with working closely with other people. Anyone who is seriously thinking of this as a career might want to look at UCLan, which runs a 4-year integrated master's programme for PAs, so they don't have to do another degree first.

We've just had her Mocks results/report and therefore predicted grades back: B/C in Chemistry, C in Biology and D in Physics...

I'm quite angry with her teachers actually, with whom we met at the very start of Sixth Form, and from whom I was expecting some back-up in my opinions re the unattainability of Medicine-likely grades. Instead they all said, vaguely, that As were certainly not impossible if she worked hard, did X, Y and Z in her revision, etc etc

As they were the subject specialists, and I a mere Humanities graduate, I was left with not a leg to stand on. I think they should have been honest about the likelihood (or NOT) of her attaining A grades (also given that she'd got a 5 in GCSE Maths, despite 2 re-sits), rather than stringing her along and allowing her to keep hoping for something that I KNEW WAS NEVER GONNA HAPPEN!

Grrrr

My OH did Pharmacology degree at Southampton with B,C,D (physics). He got a 1st, then did PHD at UCL and post doc research at NIH in America!

Hospital careers open days?

If I was going again I'd look at medical science or technology careers. At a hospital open day one of the medical physicists said they are involved in the treatment of 90% of hospital patients, they just don't ever/rarely see them - think interpreting scans/blood results, or planning targeted cancer treatments, or drug therapies.

For any given course, you should look carefully about what they say regarding maths. Although maths a level wasn’t a requirement when I did biochem, people without it had compulsory extra maths in the first year. And the course was very maths heavy.

DS is looking at a similar degree which combines Biochemistry, Microbiology, Immunology and Pharmacology over the first two years, then specialising in one or two for Honours.

We;re in Scotland so he's looking at Highers, but for A-level entry the requirements are at least BBB. So I guess at a push they might take ABC but probably not BCD.

All of those topics are covered in the biomedical sciences course DD is doing PineappleDanish. Her university asked AAA/AAB as an entry requirement.

Well done your OH, lara!

Yes, I think she will need to consider a much broader range of science-based degrees to find 5 options that are realistic for her and her grades. And I'm still not convinced that degree-level learning is the right fit for her anyway but thank you all for your suggestions.

My Ds is at Sheffield, the molecuar biology department is excellent and sheffield is a leader in scientific research. The biochemistry course is very flexible and over the degree it can be specialized in different areas. Well worth a consideration.

Unfortunately, Sheffield requires AAB, or ABB with either a B in a relevant EPQ, or an A in Core Maths.

Some courses on the Royal Society of Biology's accredited list (just used as a starting point for looking at a bunch of relevant degrees together - accreditation may or may not be relevant to the individual student) have lower entry requirements. e.g.
www.shu.ac.uk/courses/biosciences-and-chemistry/bsc-honours-biochemistry/full-time

• BCCat A Level including Biology and Chemistry.

courses.aber.ac.uk/undergraduate/biochemistry-industry/#cour-req

• A LevelsBBB-BCC with B in Chemistry